Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
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lyndon taylor
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by lyndon taylor » Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:34 pm

i'm sorry, but this just sounds like thinly veiled racism.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by pulga » Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:41 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:24 pm

The problem is not that they are in breach of EU rules; the problem is the rules themselves. A bit like why the majority of people in the USA would probably be against a set of imposed rules which allowed anyone from North or South America to settle permanently in the USA.
We do of course allow people to move from one state to another to reside. What I find unacceptable in the E.U. is that its way of selecting its leadership is too divorce from the will of the people. In the U.S. each individual is allowed to vote in federal elections, whereas in the E.U. -- if I'm not mistaken -- the leadership is chosen by national governments.

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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:55 pm

pulga wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:41 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:24 pm

The problem is not that they are in breach of EU rules; the problem is the rules themselves. A bit like why the majority of people in the USA would probably be against a set of imposed rules which allowed anyone from North or South America to settle permanently in the USA.
We do of course allow people to move from one state to another to reside. What I find unacceptable in the E.U. is that its way of selecting its leadership is too divorce from the will of the people. In the U.S. each individual is allowed to vote in federal elections, whereas in the E.U. -- if I'm not mistaken -- the leadership is chosen by national governments.
Yes, understood. But if you are talking about movement within the USA, that's very different, and more akin to movement between Länder in Germany or Départements in France. Presumably, many citizens of the USA would be against (say) all Colombians and Venezuelans having the right to move to and settle permanently in the USA., which is the equivalent of allowing Romanians or Poles (nice though they are!) to live in the UK. You are quite right about the unelected nature of many EU politicians. We have a say in voting for the European Parliament, but none in the Commission, Council, or Council of Ministers.

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Mr Man
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by Mr Man » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:09 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:30 pm
Current EU rules allow free movement of EU citizens between EU countries, so the EU in effect tells its member countries who they must accept as immigrants, regardless of their country of origin. Hungary and Poland are more proudly nationalist than others, so they are "fired up" to resist this. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fired_up Britain has decided in the 2016 referendum to leave the EU, and so regain its sovereignty over this and other matters.
Okay so how does one become an EU citizen?

Germany for example
A refugee granted asylum who has lived in Germany for six to eight years can apply for German citizenship if they fulfil a number of conditions. You need citizenship to be able to apply for a German passport, which would allow you the freedom to live, work and move anywhere in the European Union. Becoming a German citizen means a person has to give up their citizenship of another country, unless they have special permission to keep it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-36169684

Also I thought we were talking about Muslim migration/population growth rather than EU free movement in general.

And is the UK "regaining it's sovereignty" going to have any effect on the number of Muslims living in the UK? Not much I would imagine. I wonder how many of the UK's Muslim population came as EU citizens taking advantage of free movement?

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Sam Vara
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:23 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:09 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:30 pm
Current EU rules allow free movement of EU citizens between EU countries, so the EU in effect tells its member countries who they must accept as immigrants, regardless of their country of origin. Hungary and Poland are more proudly nationalist than others, so they are "fired up" to resist this. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fired_up Britain has decided in the 2016 referendum to leave the EU, and so regain its sovereignty over this and other matters.
Okay so how does one become an EU citizen?

Germany for example
A refugee granted asylum who has lived in Germany for six to eight years can apply for German citizenship if they fulfil a number of conditions. You need citizenship to be able to apply for a German passport, which would allow you the freedom to live, work and move anywhere in the European Union. Becoming a German citizen means a person has to give up their citizenship of another country, unless they have special permission to keep it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-36169684

Also I thought we were talking about Muslim migration rather than EU free movement in general.

And is the UK "regaining it's sovereignty" going to have any effect on the number of Muslims living in the UK? Not much I would imagine. I wonder how many of the UK's Muslim population came as EU citizens taking advantage of free movement?
One becomes an EU citizen by virtue of citizenship of any of its member states; the latter is a precondition of the former. The example you give means that a Muslim refugee can live in Germany for 6 years, then would be able to move to the UK or elsewhere in the EU.

The UK regaining its sovereignty means that it will be able to impose whatever laws it likes regarding rights of entry, asylum, and citizenship. The fact that there are other factors independent of EU membership (differential birth rates, excessively lax policies on migration and asylum, underfunded border controls, relatively generous welfare support, and lack of identity cards) does mean that withdrawal from the EU will have a limited effect. But it also means that if the UK were to decide to take more effective measures under a better administration then there would be nothing to stop it from doing so.

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Mr Man
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by Mr Man » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:42 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:23 pm
One becomes an EU citizen by virtue of citizenship of any of its member states; the latter is a precondition of the former. The example you give means that a Muslim refugee can live in Germany for 6 years, then would be able to move to the UK or elsewhere in the EU.
Yes, that German citizen would be able to move anywhere within the EU if they so wished. Isn't that cool.
Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:23 pm
The UK regaining its sovereignty means that it will be able to impose whatever laws it likes regarding rights of entry, asylum, and citizenship. The fact that there are other factors independent of EU membership (differential birth rates, excessively lax policies on migration and asylum, underfunded border controls, relatively generous welfare support, and lack of identity cards) does mean that withdrawal from the EU will have a limited effect. But it also means that if the UK were to decide to take more effective measures under a better administration then there would be nothing to stop it from doing so.
The UK was already able to impose whatever laws it liked regarding rights of entry, asylum, and citizenship for non-EC citizens (possibly with the exception of asylum). Our border controls were not determined by the EU (except to a minimal extent).

Being a member of the EU or not has very little relevance to the growing Muslim population in the UK

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Sam Vara
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:49 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:42 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:23 pm
One becomes an EU citizen by virtue of citizenship of any of its member states; the latter is a precondition of the former. The example you give means that a Muslim refugee can live in Germany for 6 years, then would be able to move to the UK or elsewhere in the EU.
Yes, that German citizen would be able to move anywhere within the EU if they so wished. Isn't that cool.
I don't think it is cool. It's already a pity that Germany has allowed a huge influx of foreign workers, and I think it would be compounding the error if they were allowed access to the UK.
The UK was already able to impose whatever laws it liked regarding rights of entry, asylum, and citizenship for non-EC citizens (possibly with the exception of asylum). Our border controls were not determined by the EU (except to a minimal extent).
I think rights of entry and domicile are one of the so-called "four freedoms" of the EU. I don't know of any opt-out from that, but if one was technically available then it has not been exercised. The relevant legislation is the 2006 EEA Regulations, subject to subsequent Statutory Instruments. This was I believe the UK's response to the famous "Citizens' Rights Directive" of a couple of years earlier. Of course, we never had to sign up, but we did.
Being a member of the EU or not has very little relevance to the growing Muslim population in the UK
As I said above, it has until now had less impact than other factors, most of which are thankfully within our control, and my hope is that we will exercise that control. Being subject to the policies of a supra-national organisation lessen that control.

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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:51 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:34 pm
i'm sorry, but this just sounds like thinly veiled racism.
What does? (If you supplied quotes, I would be able to respond to specific points, and even be more certain that you were addressing me rather than another contributor.)

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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by lyndon taylor » Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:53 pm

Seems to me if the Buddha where alive today, he is one of the people you would want to keep out of the UK!!
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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Mr Man
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by Mr Man » Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:08 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:49 pm
The UK was already able to impose whatever laws it liked regarding rights of entry, asylum, and citizenship for non-EC citizens (possibly with the exception of asylum). Our border controls were not determined by the EU (except to a minimal extent).
I think rights of entry and domicile are one of the so-called "four freedoms" of the EU. I don't know of any opt-out from that, but if one was technically available then it has not been exercised. The relevant legislation is the 2006 EEA Regulations, subject to subsequent Statutory Instruments. This was I believe the UK's response to the famous "Citizens' Rights Directive" of a couple of years earlier. Of course, we never had to sign up, but we did.
How is what you have written above relevant to what I had written? Seems like you just keep blowing smoke.

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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:18 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:08 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:49 pm
The UK was already able to impose whatever laws it liked regarding rights of entry, asylum, and citizenship for non-EC citizens (possibly with the exception of asylum). Our border controls were not determined by the EU (except to a minimal extent).
I think rights of entry and domicile are one of the so-called "four freedoms" of the EU. I don't know of any opt-out from that, but if one was technically available then it has not been exercised. The relevant legislation is the 2006 EEA Regulations, subject to subsequent Statutory Instruments. This was I believe the UK's response to the famous "Citizens' Rights Directive" of a couple of years earlier. Of course, we never had to sign up, but we did.
How is what you have written above relevant to what I had written? Seems like you just keep blowing smoke.
Sorry, my mistake! You had written "non EC citizens", which I now see that you have repeated in bold.

Yes, you are absolutely right on non-EU nationals. Unless and until they gain citizenship in another EU country, their entry is entirely under our control. All the more pity, then, that our government does not exercise that control more responsibly. I provided a list earlier of what I thought the problems were regarding non-EU immigrants.

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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:31 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:53 pm
Seems to me if the Buddha where alive today, he is one of the people you would want to keep out of the UK!!
I take your point, but ironically a member of the warrior caste from Nepal would be likely in these times to be a Gurkha or a Gurkha's dependent, and they would be able to legally settle in the UK:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/ ... hts-lumley

http://workpermit.com/news/all-former-b ... m-20090530

I worked with a lot of Nepalese Gurkhas a few years ago, and found them to be lovely people. But we can't make immigration policy on the basis that a member of a particular group was, 2500 years ago, the founder of a favoured religion. Presumably if would have let in the Buddha, then we would also have had to let in every nasty genocidal warlord.

I don't, however, see what this has got to do with racism. If you are accusing me of racism, then state specifically where you think what I have said or advocated is racist. I'm not a racist, either overt or covert.

It would be goood if you could past my quotes, so I know you are addressing me - I'd hate to miss an oportunity to defend myself against an unfounded accusation of racism!

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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by Circle5 » Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:41 pm

First of all, Albania and Kosovo are of course not members of the EU. Kosovo is not even a country. Neither does my country officially recognize it and neither do I personally recognize it. Many countries don't recognize it, it's like Tranznistria as far as I'm concerned.

Second, I don't think this wave of muslim migration is a bigger problem than the one it is trying to solve. Europe populaltion will be cut in half by 2050 or 2100 if I remember the stats right. Europe will no longer exist very soon, and that is a huge problem since EU and USA are pretty much the only democratic countries in the world, therefore the only ones with the capacity to become very rich, productive, fair, free, etc. Dictatorships can never achieve high economic development due to the corruption such systems bring. If EU and USA population will get at 25% of what it is now, the economic power, military power, etc. of the good guys in the world will be destroyed.

And third: At least the muslim migrants are caucasian as a race and therefore have a good average IQ. And even this isn't helping too much. Besides groups with lower average IQ having higher natality rates, a probably even bigger problem is dysgenic reproduction. Ever since the modern age, whatever the group, people with higher IQ make much fewer kids than individuals with a lower IQ from the same group. This is creating a downwards pressure on global average IQ, which is highly correlated with PIB per capita and democratic development.

And last but not least: It should be expected that democracy and the high development that such a system brings will die one day, probably before 2300. A democratic system is quite an unusual development. All the pressure in the world is pressing towards dictatorships. As a person living in an eastern european country struggling ever since 1989 to become democratic, I know better than anyone else how difficult it is to implement such a system and how easy it is for it to dissappear in an instance. Look at how putin is assasinating journalist and political oposition but has 80% real support due to control of the media and effective propaganda.

If we look at what happened after 1989, things look pretty bad. Despite USA and EU gaining a hegemony of word power, they didn't really achieved too much in terms of promoting democracy. Barely half of estern europe became at least somehow democratic. In the rest of the world almost nothing changed. And these democratic developments can be reverted in an instance, as it happened in Hungary or Russia.

Giving all these problems listed above, I stopped thinking too much about the future of the world and especially that of Europe since it doesn't look too good. Just stop thinking about it. Think only about what you can do in the short term to prolong the good days that we live right now for as much as possible. There is little we can do about the future. The golden ages of development and freedom that we are living right now was bound to be impermanent too.

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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:15 pm

Greetings,
Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:30 pm
I won't presume to speak for Retro, but my understanding of what he meant was this. Current EU rules allow free movement of EU citizens between EU countries, so the EU in effect tells its member countries who they must accept as immigrants, regardless of their country of origin. Hungary and Poland are more proudly nationalist than others, so they are "fired up" to resist this. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fired_up Britain has decided in the 2016 referendum to leave the EU, and so regain its sovereignty over this and other matters.

(Apologies to Retro if I got this wrong!)
Nope, it's spot on. Thanks.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by chownah » Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:32 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:15 pm
Greetings,
Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:30 pm
I won't presume to speak for Retro, but my understanding of what he meant was this. Current EU rules allow free movement of EU citizens between EU countries, so the EU in effect tells its member countries who they must accept as immigrants, regardless of their country of origin. Hungary and Poland are more proudly nationalist than others, so they are "fired up" to resist this. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fired_up Britain has decided in the 2016 referendum to leave the EU, and so regain its sovereignty over this and other matters.

(Apologies to Retro if I got this wrong!)
Nope, it's spot on. Thanks.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Retrofuturist,
Thank you for your response. It has clarified many things for me.
chownah

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Mr Man
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by Mr Man » Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:59 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:15 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:30 pm
I won't presume to speak for Retro, but my understanding of what he meant was this. Current EU rules allow free movement of EU citizens between EU countries, so the EU in effect tells its member countries who they must accept as immigrants, regardless of their country of origin. Hungary and Poland are more proudly nationalist than others, so they are "fired up" to resist this. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fired_up Britain has decided in the 2016 referendum to leave the EU, and so regain its sovereignty over this and other matters.

(Apologies to Retro if I got this wrong!)
Nope, it's spot on. Thanks.
Spot on in what retrofuturist meant (maybe) but wrong.

"Free movement of EU citizens" is irrelevant.

Hungary and Poland were unhappy with EU refugee quota plans (for non EU citizens).

And as pointed out earlier the UK couldn't be forced to accept more refugees.

https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-cant-be- ... -refugees/

This is the post from chownah that retrofuturist was originally responding to:
chownah wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:28 pm
Europeans want to import workers and bright students....2.5 muslims gained legal entry to europe from mid 2010 to mid 2016 according to pew research and in the same period there were 1.3 million refugees admitted to europe.

If europeans are really worried about the influx of muslims they should stop all work and education visas.....but they don't it seems. So it seems that just like many countries don't want americans but they accept them because they want american money, europe doesn't want muslims but they are lazy and they want the work done which muslims are willing to do and they want to import the brightest and best of muslim human resource.

Americans should understand this very well in that it is very similar to mexican immigration to the usa......they want the work done but they don't want the workers.
Seems like politicos don't understand this and only want to focus on the partisan aspects of refugees.
chownah
chownah is not talking about free movement of EU citizens.

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Kusala
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by Kusala » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:04 am

Image
Image

"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "

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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by DooDoot » Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:32 am

Mrs Nahid Jafarzadeh is a successful mother and businesswoman whose profession and passion is to host tourists and introduce the real Iran to them.



"We have been to 20 to 40 countries around the world... I have to say we have never in any country felt so welcome; with such warm people"...

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Mr Man
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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by Mr Man » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:19 am

Two stories in the news today - One Europe, one USA

"A Britain First supporter told police he was going to "kill a Muslim" before twice driving his van into an Indian restaurant, a court has heard." (Not Donald Trunp though)

https://news.sky.com/story/man-told-pol ... t-11157119


"Florida sheriff: Man planned mass shooting at Islamic center"

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/florida-sh ... ic-center/

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Re: Muslims, Islam, U.S.A and Europe

Post by Kusala » Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:51 am

Image
Image

"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "

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