Criticism of Islam

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
Post Reply
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 11456
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Criticism of Islam

Post by DNS » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:45 pm

Upeksha wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:13 am
And the contradiction is rather embarrassing, it runs something like "I think intolerance is a bad character trait, but I hereby offer an argument which is precisely an expression of that."
It's not necessarily a contradiction or embarrassing; I found this posted from another thread:
paradox-of-tolerance.jpg
paradox-of-tolerance.jpg (86.01 KiB) Viewed 499 times
Philosopher Karl Popper called it the "Paradox of Tolerance."

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 19452
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Criticism of Islam

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:12 pm

Greetings Kamran,
Kamran wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:08 pm
The Jihadi terrorist are losing thanks to Russia and Iran who have destroyed their sanctuaries.
They're losing first and foremost because their purse strings were cut. That's what helped give Russia and Iran the upper hand.
Kamran wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:08 pm
Is Saudi Arabia, the US, and Israel doing anything to contain Iranian influence in Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Yemen, etc ?
Yes, the purse strings were cut... and who do you think orchestrated that?

(It certainly wasn't Barack Obama! :lol: )
Kamran wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:08 pm
The new prince, of course, has to make public denials about supporting jihadis...we don't just take politicians and dictators at their word though, do we ?
Well if you're not going to acknowledge the changes, there's not much to talk about. Maybe go back to 2016 and we can have a conversation about it then?
Kamran wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:08 pm
See below.
More globalist-era commentary... horribly out of date.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

Upeksha
Posts: 119
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:23 am

Re: Criticism of Islam

Post by Upeksha » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:02 pm

DNS wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:45 pm
Upeksha wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:13 am
And the contradiction is rather embarrassing, it runs something like "I think intolerance is a bad character trait, but I hereby offer an argument which is precisely an expression of that."
It's not necessarily a contradiction or embarrassing; I found this posted from another thread:

paradox-of-tolerance.jpg

Philosopher Karl Popper called it the "Paradox of Tolerance."
I accept the Popperian argument - he was writing to defend liberalism in the midst of some of the worst excesses of 20th century totalitarianism. And I agree it involves a paradox rather than a contradiction.

But nonetheless, the internet meme posted by Kusala did not offer an argument (or any evidence) as such; it simply made a groundless, sweeping, all encompassing central assertion that all monotheistic religions are inherently intolerant.

I don't think it's possible to make such a general, sweeping and universal statement without manifestly expressing a gross level of intolerance. And because monotheism is everywhere, the Popperian logic of defending liberalism against totalitarianism does not apply - the argument is not on the level of political contestation.

Further to this, because the very idea of political tolerance comes out of the overtly Christian John Locke, the level of contradiction - rather than mere paradox - is impossible to miss. i.e. monotheism actually provides the grounds for liberal conceptions of tolerance.
:anjali:

Upeksha
Posts: 119
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:23 am

Re: Criticism of Islam

Post by Upeksha » Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:06 am

Actually, it's quite interesting to contemplate the connections between political liberalism and monotheism - and very relevant for these kinds of discussions.

There's no doubt at all that the historical roots of liberalism can be found in the rise of Protestantism. And two of the three major contributors - Locke and Kant - were deeply informed by Christian theology. JS Mill less so. So the first salient point is that monotheism gives rise to both sides of the reformation (obviously), one of which crystallises into liberalism a little later down the track. And this gives us the second salient point - monotheism cannot have an 'inherent' political position, because it is the genealogical root of both Catholic-theocratic universalism and liberalism which protects the rights of the individual against the state. One must ask: why is the individual (and individual freedom) so privileged in that tradition? Read Locke and Kant: it's because God gave man rights, freedom and property (Locke) or good will (Kant).

The point here is that we in liberal systems are less free of theology than one might assume. And also, that monotheism can give rise to all kinds of different ideas and systems.

Popper's argument is really against two things: Soviet communism (which he characterises as 'historicism' because of Marx's method) and German/Italian fascism (which he characterises as Platonic). The defenders of 'freedom' in this context really were the monotheists, of the liberal-protestant variety such as the US.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 1571
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Criticism of Islam

Post by DooDoot » Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:20 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:10 pm
I will return Saudi Arabia to moderate Islam, says crown prince
Arabia once had moderate Islam at around 700AD but Saudi Arabia has never been "moderate". There is no such thing as "moderate Wahhabism".

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 1571
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Criticism of Islam

Post by DooDoot » Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:32 am

Upeksha wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:02 pm
Further to this, because the very idea of political tolerance comes out of the overtly Christian John Locke, the level of contradiction - rather than mere paradox - is impossible to miss. i.e. monotheism actually provides the grounds for liberal conceptions of tolerance.
So the following monotheism is tolerance?
Deuteronomy 13
New International Version (NIV)
Worshiping Other Gods

If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV
John 17:3

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearc ... =50&end=50

User avatar
Kamran
Posts: 411
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 3:14 am

Re: Criticism of Islam

Post by Kamran » Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:45 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:12 pm
Greetings Kamran,
Kamran wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:08 pm
The Jihadi terrorist are losing thanks to Russia and Iran who have destroyed their sanctuaries.
They're losing first and foremost because their purse strings were cut. That's what helped give Russia and Iran the upper hand.
Kamran wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:08 pm
Is Saudi Arabia, the US, and Israel doing anything to contain Iranian influence in Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Yemen, etc ?
Yes, the purse strings were cut... and who do you think orchestrated that?

(It certainly wasn't Barack Obama! :lol: )
Kamran wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:08 pm
The new prince, of course, has to make public denials about supporting jihadis...we don't just take politicians and dictators at their word though, do we ?
Well if you're not going to acknowledge the changes, there's not much to talk about. Maybe go back to 2016 and we can have a conversation about it then?
Kamran wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:08 pm
See below.
More globalist-era commentary... horribly out of date.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Hi Paul,

No doubt there was some changes with Trump Admin. I believe the direct US support for Jihadi terrorists in Syria was not very significant anyway.

Its the indirect support for Jihadi Terrorism that I am referring to (via arms deals and support to Israel and Saudi Arabia, for instance)

The below Haaretz article is from 6 days ago:

"To Push Iran Back, Israel Ramps Up Support for Syrian Rebels, 'Arming 7 Different Groups"

https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-new ... -1.5826348

Thanks,
Kamran
"Silence gives answers"

Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Rumi

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 19452
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Criticism of Islam

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:07 am

Greetings Kamran,
Kamran wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:45 am
I believe the direct US support for Jihadi terrorists in Syria was not very significant anyway.
Like this...?



Image

and...

Syria’s civil war to mar Obama legacy
Kamran wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:45 am
Its the indirect support for Jihadi Terrorism that I am referring to (via arms deals and support to Israel and Saudi Arabia, for instance)
Like this...?

Hillary Clinton Oversaw US Arms Deals to Clinton Foundation Donors
Clinton Foundation Donors Got Weapons Deals From Hillary Clinton's State Department
Foundation Ties Bedevil Hillary Clinton’s Presidential Campaign

Kamran wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:45 am
The below Haaretz article is from 6 days ago:
I'm not going to speak for Israel, as I'm not well versed enough in their politics to know what they're up to.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

User avatar
Kamran
Posts: 411
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 3:14 am

Re: Criticism of Islam

Post by Kamran » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:34 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:07 am

I'm not going to speak for Israel, as I'm not well versed enough in their politics to know what they're up to.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Haha thanks for posting those photos :)

McCain and the US Congress are under pressure from the powerful Israel Lobby - he met those terrorists to make his Israeli donors happy.

I liked Trump's position on Middle East during his campaign( like in the video below) , but it seems he has also succumbed to the Israeli Lobby.

"They lied. They said there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. There were none and they knew there were none! They destabilized the Middle East." - Trump

"Silence gives answers"

Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Rumi

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 1571
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Criticism of Islam

Post by DooDoot » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:55 am

Kamran wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:34 am
McCain and the US Congress are under pressure from the powerful Israel Lobby - he met those terrorists to make his Israeli donors happy.
But McCain was everywhere. Libya, Syria, Ukraine. I think there is more going than the Israel Lobby. Military companies such as Lockheed Martin provided heavy support for the Iraq War deception.


Upeksha
Posts: 119
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:23 am

Re: Criticism of Islam

Post by Upeksha » Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:27 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:32 am
Upeksha wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:02 pm
Further to this, because the very idea of political tolerance comes out of the overtly Christian John Locke, the level of contradiction - rather than mere paradox - is impossible to miss. i.e. monotheism actually provides the grounds for liberal conceptions of tolerance.
So the following monotheism is tolerance?
Deuteronomy 13
New International Version (NIV)
Worshiping Other Gods

If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV
John 17:3

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearc ... =50&end=50
My position - which I think I carefully laid out - is that monotheism gives rise to many, many positions. From tolerance to intolerance and everywhere in between. Therefore, it cannot be inherently anything.

Even the most cursory examination of the various theologies, systems and traditions will show you that very swiftly. i.e. Luther = intolerant. Erasmus = tolerant.

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 3289
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Criticism of Islam

Post by Sam Vara » Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:18 am

Upeksha wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:06 am
Actually, it's quite interesting to contemplate the connections between political liberalism and monotheism - and very relevant for these kinds of discussions.

There's no doubt at all that the historical roots of liberalism can be found in the rise of Protestantism. And two of the three major contributors - Locke and Kant - were deeply informed by Christian theology. JS Mill less so. So the first salient point is that monotheism gives rise to both sides of the reformation (obviously), one of which crystallises into liberalism a little later down the track. And this gives us the second salient point - monotheism cannot have an 'inherent' political position, because it is the genealogical root of both Catholic-theocratic universalism and liberalism which protects the rights of the individual against the state. One must ask: why is the individual (and individual freedom) so privileged in that tradition? Read Locke and Kant: it's because God gave man rights, freedom and property (Locke) or good will (Kant).

The point here is that we in liberal systems are less free of theology than one might assume. And also, that monotheism can give rise to all kinds of different ideas and systems.

Popper's argument is really against two things: Soviet communism (which he characterises as 'historicism' because of Marx's method) and German/Italian fascism (which he characterises as Platonic). The defenders of 'freedom' in this context really were the monotheists, of the liberal-protestant variety such as the US.
:goodpost: Excellent points, well made.

User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 3209
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: Criticism of Islam

Post by Mr Man » Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:21 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:07 am
Image
This picture should be moved to the "Fake News" thread.

Not sure why admin likes to post fake news.

Does it go against the precepts?

User avatar
Pseudobabble
Posts: 443
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:11 am
Location: London

Re: Criticism of Islam

Post by Pseudobabble » Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:47 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:20 am
retrofuturist wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:10 pm
I will return Saudi Arabia to moderate Islam, says crown prince
Arabia once had moderate Islam at around 700AD but Saudi Arabia has never been "moderate". There is no such thing as "moderate Wahhabism".
:goodpost:
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

User avatar
Pseudobabble
Posts: 443
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:11 am
Location: London

Re: Criticism of Islam

Post by Pseudobabble » Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:48 am

Mr Man wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:21 am
retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:07 am
Image
This picture should be moved to the "Fake News" thread.

Not sure why admin likes to post fake news.

Does it go against the precepts?
While you have supplied no evidence that this is fake, the lighting certainly suggests photoshop.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 1571
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Criticism of Islam

Post by DooDoot » Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:52 am

Pseudobabble wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:48 am
While you have supplied no evidence that this is fake, the lighting certainly suggests photoshop.
There are videos of McCain in these war zones, such as Libya & Ukraine. They are obviously not fake. Video on mainstream news of McCain illegal trip to Syria (although the photos could be fake; who knows?).



Mr Man wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:21 am
Does it go against the precepts?
Not unless you can prove its fake. It certainly looks like a real photo of a US politician that has entered illegally into a sovereign nation. The photo is from the video above.

Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 3209
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: Criticism of Islam

Post by Mr Man » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:04 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:52 am

Not unless you can prove its fake.
The fakeness is in the text. It is in who the picture says McCain is standing with (I'm sure you know this as you have posted this picture before I believe).

Why do people post fake news here.

Seems like the same as lying to me.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 1571
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Criticism of Islam

Post by DooDoot » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:11 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:04 pm
The fakeness is in the text.
It was originally claimed the "picture" was fake. Shown this was probably wrong, now it is claimed the text is wrong. You now need to prove the text is wrong; that the following man is not in the photo. Regardless, it is irrelevant. Its official the US had a covert operation in Syria. Why the denial? Why deny the US was supporting Al Qaeda affiliates in Syria & Libya?
Behind the Sudden Death of a $1 Billion Secret C.I.A. War in Syria

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/02/worl ... trump.html
President Trump has decided to end the CIA’s covert program to arm and train moderate Syrian rebels battling the government of Bashar al-Assad, a move long sought by Russia, according to U.S. officials.

The program was a central plank of a policy begun by the Obama administration in 2013 to put pressure on Assad to step aside, but even its backers have questioned its efficacy since Russia deployed forces in Syria two years later.

Officials said the phasing out of the secret program reflects Trump’s interest in finding ways to work with Russia, which saw the anti-Assad program as an assault on its interests. The shuttering of the program is also an acknowledgment of Washington’s limited leverage and desire to remove Assad from power.

Just three months ago, after the United States accused Assad of using chemical weapons, Trump launched retaliatory airstrikes against a Syrian air base. At the time, U.N. Ambassador Nikki Haley, said that “in no way do we see peace in that area with Assad at the head of the Syrian government.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/na ... 6570432832

Image
Al-Baghdadi was arrested by US Forces-Iraq on 2 or 4 February 2004 near Fallujah... He was detained at the Abu Ghraib and Camp Bucca detention centers under his name Ibrahim Awad Ibrahim al-Badry as a "civilian internee". His detainee card gives his profession as administrative work (secretary). The US Department of Defense said al-Baghdadi was imprisoned at Compound 6, which was a medium security Sunni compound. On 8 December 2004,he was released as a "low level prisoner" after recommended for a release by the Combined Review and Release Board.

A number of newspapers and cable news channels have instead stated that al-Baghdadi was interned from 2005 to 2009. These reports originate from an interview with the former commander of Camp Bucca, Colonel Kenneth King, and are not substantiated by Department of Defense records. Al-Baghdadi was imprisoned at Camp Bucca along with other future leaders of ISIL.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Bakr_al-Baghdadi
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 3209
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: Criticism of Islam

Post by Mr Man » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:17 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:11 pm
Mr Man wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:04 pm
The fakeness is in the text.
You originally claimed the "picture" was fake. Shown you were probably wrong, now you claim the text is wrong.

The text is part of the picture as presented to this forum.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 1571
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Criticism of Islam

Post by DooDoot » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:22 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:17 pm
The text is part of the picture as presented to this forum.
The picture is probably not fake. It has been officially admitted McCain was (illegally) in Syria. But it doesn't matter. There was an official US covert war in Syria; just as currently there are thousands of US troops in Syria. Its all illegal. It all contravenes International Law. It has murdered & destroyed the lives & livelihoods of millions of people. Recent American military action in Raqqa & Mosul has killed hundreds of people & children. Recent American action in a foreign land killed 200 invited Russian mercenaries.

The US Motion Picture Academy gave an Academy Award to the fundamentalists in the video who operated next door to Al Nusra (Al Qaeda). Have you forgotten Al Qaeda supposedly did 9/11? Does it concern you the affiliates of the official doers of 9/11 are being supported by the USA in Syria?


Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests