Victims of Buddhism

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
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kverty
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Victims of Buddhism

Post by kverty » Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:43 pm

Yeah, this thread had to be created considering the atrocities carried out by buddhists against the rohingya in Myanmar.

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Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by DNS » Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:48 pm

kverty wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:43 pm
Yeah, this thread had to be created considering the atrocities carried out by buddhists against the rohingya in Myanmar.
Are there victims of Buddhism? Or is it rather victims of geopolitical politics? I'd say it's rather complex and the latter. It involves migration, nationalism and many factors. Buddhism does not teach violence, so I'm not saying what is happening is okay or excusing the actions of people in that area who happen to be Buddhist.

What is happening is wrong, but it is not Buddhism that teaches to inflict violence on others.

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Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by kverty » Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:41 pm

DNS wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:48 pm
kverty wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:43 pm
Yeah, this thread had to be created considering the atrocities carried out by buddhists against the rohingya in Myanmar.
Are there victims of Buddhism? Or is it rather victims of geopolitical politics? I'd say it's rather complex and the latter. It involves migration, nationalism and many factors. Buddhism does not teach violence, so I'm not saying what is happening is okay or excusing the actions of people in that area who happen to be Buddhist.

What is happening is wrong, but it is not Buddhism that teaches to inflict violence on others.
Yeah well, they call themselves buddhist and are part of the buddhist community/sangha. As for not teaching violence, neither do communist political and economic theory, some people just happen to use violence to justify the means to an end. Capitalism isn't violent, or national-socialism in theory. My point is that "Victims of X" is based on a wrong perception of what X means...we should try to analyze the content of X instead of freely associate X with whatever from our experience. Just a thought, this thread was ironic, my apologies and metta to you all.

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Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:35 pm

kverty wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:41 pm
DNS wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:48 pm
kverty wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:43 pm
Yeah, this thread had to be created considering the atrocities carried out by buddhists against the rohingya in Myanmar.
Are there victims of Buddhism? Or is it rather victims of geopolitical politics? I'd say it's rather complex and the latter. It involves migration, nationalism and many factors. Buddhism does not teach violence, so I'm not saying what is happening is okay or excusing the actions of people in that area who happen to be Buddhist.

What is happening is wrong, but it is not Buddhism that teaches to inflict violence on others.
Yeah well, they call themselves buddhist and are part of the buddhist community/sangha. As for not teaching violence, neither do communist political and economic theory, some people just happen to use violence to justify the means to an end. Capitalism isn't violent, or national-socialism in theory. My point is that "Victims of X" is based on a wrong perception of what X means...we should try to analyze the content of X instead of freely associate X with whatever from our experience. Just a thought, this thread was ironic, my apologies and metta to you all.
The irony is appreciated. So is the metta! :) Better to talk of "Victims of Buddhists" as it is clearly the people rather than the Dhamma itself at fault here. People who engage in violence and persecution, etc., do so despite Buddhism, not because of it.

With regard to communism, by the way, Marx himself seemed to have no problem with cataclysmic revolution, and others such as Lenin seemed to take a metaphysical delight in destruction which would appear to be at odds with any materialist conception of history.

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Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by DNS » Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:06 pm

Marx, Engels, Lenin wrote:The theory of Marx and Engels of the inevitability of a violent revolution refers to the bourgeois state. The latter cannot be superseded by the proletarian state (the dictatorship of the proletariat) through the process of 'withering away", but, as a general rule, only through a violent revolution. The panegyric Engels sang in its honor, and which fully corresponds to Marx's repeated statements. (The State and Revolution, Chapter 1)
Buddha wrote:All beings tremble before danger, all fear death. When a man considers this, he does not kill or cause to kill. All beings fear before danger, life is dear to all. When a man considers this, he does not kill or cause to kill.” Dhammapada, 129-130

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Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by kverty » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:18 pm

DNS wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:06 pm
Marx, Engels, Lenin wrote:The theory of Marx and Engels of the inevitability of a violent revolution refers to the bourgeois state. The latter cannot be superseded by the proletarian state (the dictatorship of the proletariat) through the process of 'withering away", but, as a general rule, only through a violent revolution. The panegyric Engels sang in its honor, and which fully corresponds to Marx's repeated statements. (The State and Revolution, Chapter 1)
Buddha wrote:All beings tremble before danger, all fear death. When a man considers this, he does not kill or cause to kill. All beings fear before danger, life is dear to all. When a man considers this, he does not kill or cause to kill.” Dhammapada, 129-130
Why quote Marx? As much as he has contributed on the subject of political and economical theory his manifesto is nothing but a personal approach on how the communist society will eventually unfold, he has it's own branch which is called Marxism. There's other branches for example anarchist-communism, primitive communism and even christian communism, each has it's own thoughts...some believe that all means are justified and some believe that some degree of violence are necessary, I don't, I believe peace and non-violence is the only way to achieve a peaceful and harmonious society.
As capitalism and communism are diametrical opposites and can not co-exist (because capitalism requires private ownership over the means of production and communism the abolishment), the only way to reach a peaceful and harmonious co-existence is to allow each other to freely choose which type of society you prefer. But because capitalism have established hegemony over the world the choice to leave the system and create a new one isn't really that simple. If communism would be the dominant system I would gladly let those who wished to trade and establish private ownership do so as long as they didn't interfere or cause environmental damage that jeopardized the whole planets ecosystem...but which ever system one prefers, or thinks works best, as long as the Wheel of Dhamma turns in the world there's hope to leave all these systems behind. :)

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Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by JohnK » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:24 pm

DNS wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:06 pm
Buddha wrote:All beings tremble before danger...” Dhammapada, 129-130
Big news: DW claims the Buddha WROTE! :shock:
:)
"Why is it, Master Kaccana, that ascetics fight with ascetics?"
"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics" (AN 2: iv, 6, abridged).
Kindly eyes, not verbal daggers.

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Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:37 pm

kverty wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:18 pm

Why quote Marx? As much as he has contributed on the subject of political and economical theory his manifesto is nothing but a personal approach on how the communist society will eventually unfold, he has it's own branch which is called Marxism.
Because none of the other forms of "communism" have had more than a tiny influence upon history, whereas the influence of Marxism has been colossal, with huge numbers of people living in countries claiming to be influenced by Marxist political and economic theory, some of which were capable of projecting military force well beyond their borders. And within many other countries, Marxist supporters have changed their countries' policies and cultures in numerous ways. In addition, Marx's claim that his materialist conception of history was the solely scientific approach meant that all succeeding political theories claiming communism as their goal have appeared to be impractical wishful thinking rather than realpolitik.

The other forms of communism that you cite have, by comparisn, created very few victims; probably because their access to power has been negligible.

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Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by Mr Man » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:51 pm

Tatmadaw, Sangha and government must work together, Sitagu Sayadaw says in sermon to officers

https://frontiermyanmar.net/en/tatmadaw ... o-officers

Not all Buddhists agree with Sitagu Sayadaw’s militant message

https://coconuts.co/yangon/news/not-bud ... t-message/

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Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by kverty » Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:09 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:37 pm
kverty wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:18 pm

Why quote Marx? As much as he has contributed on the subject of political and economical theory his manifesto is nothing but a personal approach on how the communist society will eventually unfold, he has it's own branch which is called Marxism.
Because none of the other forms of "communism" have had more than a tiny influence upon history, whereas the influence of Marxism has been colossal, with huge numbers of people living in countries claiming to be influenced by Marxist political and economic theory, some of which were capable of projecting military force well beyond their borders. And within many other countries, Marxist supporters have changed their countries' policies and cultures in numerous ways. In addition, Marx's claim that his materialist conception of history was the solely scientific approach meant that all succeeding political theories claiming communism as their goal have appeared to be impractical wishful thinking rather than realpolitik.

The other forms of communism that you cite have, by comparisn, created very few victims; probably because their access to power has been negligible.
Yeah well I could invent something like "pacifist communism" or "spiritual communism" or whatever, which aspire to the same society but through different means, right? You need to differentiate between what actions lead to an authoritarian state or democratic state, a free society or totalitarian society etc...all means are not justified. Marx where clearly biased from his own time when revolutionary ideas where prevalent in the industrial society. I don't condone any of the atrocities carried out by communists, I only consider it a great tragedy that so many thinks violence to be the only way reach peace.

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Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by kverty » Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:33 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:51 pm
Tatmadaw, Sangha and government must work together, Sitagu Sayadaw says in sermon to officers

https://frontiermyanmar.net/en/tatmadaw ... o-officers

Not all Buddhists agree with Sitagu Sayadaw’s militant message

https://coconuts.co/yangon/news/not-bud ... t-message/
Thet Swe Win is of course right. For me it's kind of difficult to mix up buddhism with hate or terror...but maybe muslims and christians feels the same way, I mean anyone can justify whatever they feel. If a set of conditions is favorable. Just like dependent co-arising is taught...

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Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by bodom » Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:57 pm

This thread should be more aptly named Victims of hate and delusion. What these people are doing has not a thing to do with Buddhism or the Buddhas teachings. They are Buddhist in name only. The only killing the Buddha approved of is the killing of anger. It's a damn shame what's going on but it has not a thing to do with Buddhism as its meant to be practiced. You won't find a shred of Buddhist scripture to support the actions of these people so they cannot accurately be called Buddhists or even to be remotely following the teachings of the Buddha.

:namaste:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


"Dont send the mind outside. Watch the mind right at the mind."

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Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by kverty » Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:12 pm

bodom wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:57 pm
This thread should be more aptly named Victims of hate and delusion. What these people are doing has not a thing to do with Buddhism or the Buddhas teachings. They are Buddhist in name only. The only killing the Buddha approved of is the killing of anger. It's a damn shame what's going on but it has not a thing to do with Buddhism as its meant to be practiced. You won't find a shred of Buddhist scripture to support the actions of these people so they cannot accurately be called Buddhists or even to be remotely following the teachings of the Buddha.

:namaste:
Exactly! Victims by hate and delusion is by their very nature defined by their actions! But far from their nature; we have capitalism, communism, fascism, nazism...but if you could point to violence inherent in any political or economical philosophy then be my guest. My point is, analyze the contents, and decide from a logical point of view.

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Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by L.N. » Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:05 am

bodom wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:57 pm
... They are Buddhist in name only. ...
Yes, that's part of the problem. Actions demonstrate to others what "Buddhism" means. Same with "Islam." Same with "Christian." The actions taken by Buddhist monks against Rohingya in Myanmar and also in Sri Lanka where they fled will certainly color the perception of Buddhism whether we like it or not. (As do statements made here on Dhamma Wheel, by the way.)



Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:31 am

kverty wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:09 pm
Yeah well I could invent something like "pacifist communism" or "spiritual communism" or whatever, which aspire to the same society but through different means, right? You need to differentiate between what actions lead to an authoritarian state or democratic state, a free society or totalitarian society etc...all means are not justified. Marx where clearly biased from his own time when revolutionary ideas where prevalent in the industrial society. I don't condone any of the atrocities carried out by communists, I only consider it a great tragedy that so many thinks violence to be the only way reach peace.
The point is that you haven't invented something like "pacifist communism" or "spiritual communism", so the question of victims does not arise. Where people have (on the "Victims of Communism" thread) talked about victims, they have talked about real victims. Marx's ideas of violent revolution and the dictatorship of the proletariat have led to real victims by the multiple million. I thought that this thread was talking about the real world, rather than one in which imaginary counter-factual entities cause victims.

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Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by L.N. » Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:52 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:31 am
I thought that this thread was talking about the real world, rather than one in which imaginary counter-factual entities cause victims.
You mean like this? Or this? Or this? It appears there has been a long an uninterrupted history of Buddhists on Dhammawheel.com focusing on specific facts or fake facts about Islam to paint an overall picture which disparages Islam (and its offshoot Bahai). This has occurred even as world attention has grown regarding what is often perceived as Buddhist aggression agains Muslims. As demonstrated here, some Buddhists here on Dhammawheel.com have been dismissive of any association between Buddhism and the plight of the Rohingya Muslims, even using the Trump tactic of blaming the media, as demonstrated by this post:
Ben wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:05 am
Having stayed in Myanmar and having some knowledge of the idiosyncratic relations between State, Sangha and Laity, I am inclined to disregard just about every news report on activities in the country. My observation has been that material offered as news is, through ommission or commission, often fictional. Anything you hear needs to be taken with a grain of salt.
This is not all "fake news," as the discussion might be framed in the Trump era. The actions and words of Buddhists gives the world a perception of Buddhism, whether or not we like it. In my opinion, we should not be distracted. We should not blame the media. Rather, we should own this, discuss it openly, acknowledge the harm to perceptions of Buddhism which the Rohingya tragedy has created, and not make things worse by disparaging Islam and its offshoots on this Buddhist discussion forum.
Last edited by L.N. on Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by DNS » Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:55 pm

kverty wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:12 pm
but if you could point to violence inherent in any political or economical philosophy then be my guest. My point is, analyze the contents, and decide from a logical point of view.
It has already been done; violence is inherent in Marxism. It is not in Buddhism. People can corrupt the teachings of the Buddha and act violently but that is not the correct practice of Buddhism. If one is violent and Marxist, then one is following that political and economic policy correctly.

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Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by DNS » Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:58 pm

L.N. wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:52 pm
As demonstrated here, the Buddhists here on Dhammawheel.com have been dismissive of any association between Buddhism and the plight of the Rohingya Muslims, even using the Trump tactic of blaming the media,
Some Buddhists. Some Buddhists don't speak for all Buddhists. Actually, I've seen quite a few Buddhists here speak out against the violence in Myanmar.

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Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by Circle5 » Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:50 pm

bodom wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:57 pm
You won't find a shred of Buddhist scripture to support the actions of these people so they cannot accurately be called Buddhists or even to be remotely following the teachings of the Buddha.
:goodpost:

This is what some people here do not understand. You can't make Buddhism look like Islam because Buddhism does not have a single sutta arguing for such things. Meanwhile, in Christianity and Islam you have quite a ton: http://www.evilbible.com/

The things you find in the old testament have shocked even me, a guy living in officialy the most christian country on earth who had 1 hour of religion every week for 10 years of school. I've actually checked those in the real paperback bible and they are all there. Jesus was not that type of person, but early christians felt the need to put that old testament written by a warior king in there to make the religion look order and gain legitimacy.

As for Islam, Mohamed was also a warior king that conquered a lot of land like the guy who wrote the old testament, that's why he loved so much that book and made Islam be more about that than about the new testament. Mohamed was better as a person and wiser than King David but still that's what you'll end up with if you have a warior king make up a religion.

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Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:48 pm

L.N. wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:52 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:31 am
I thought that this thread was talking about the real world, rather than one in which imaginary counter-factual entities cause victims.
You mean like this? or this? Or this?
No, I don't mean anything like any of those. I was referring to people who have been killed or persecuted or had their lives made miserable by communism. Your links are to people here on DW posting about Islam and Unitarianism, so I don't know whether they are completely irrelevant, or whether you wish to broaden the topic out.
As demonstrated here, the Buddhists here on Dhammawheel.com have been dismissive of any association between Buddhism and the plight of the Rohingya Muslims, even using the Trump tactic of blaming the media, as demonstrated by this post:
That may well be worthy of another topic, but again, it's not relevant to anything I've said. Do you want me to comment on it nevertheless?
We should not blame the media. Rather, we should own this, discuss it openly, acknowledge the harm to perceptions of Buddhism which the Rohingya tragedy has created, and not make things worse by disparaging Islam and its offshoots on this Buddhist discussion forum.
I'm not blaming the media. I don't need to "own" anything, as I don't subscribe to anything that could legitimately be held responsible for the events in Rakhine. I'm not particularly interested in other people's perceptions of Buddhism. And I've not disparaged Islam.

Might you be mistaking me for another person posting here?
Last edited by Sam Vara on Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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