Victims of Buddhism

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
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DooDoot
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Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by DooDoot » Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:50 am

apeiron wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:46 am
I sympathize with females , nuns , monks , males , animals etc , but , I suppose you could have a look at below example .

1. Vinaya is oppressive , patriarchal .
Therefore this is the Cause of nuns being abused .

2. Vinaya may not be oppressive , patriarchal .
Therefore , nuns also could be abused .

Hence , could you see the difference ?!
To have a meaningful discussion, you should provide actual examples of nuns being "abused" due to the Vinaya (rather than post generalisations or hypotheticals). Since the Vinaya is designed to prevent harm & abuse, it seems obvious the Vinaya does not cause harm.
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

apeiron
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Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by apeiron » Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:56 am

:thumbsup:

Ok , let's put it this way , when Buddha was alive , did the nuns being abused ?
:thanks:

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DooDoot
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Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by DooDoot » Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:07 am

apeiron wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:56 am
Ok , let's put it this way , when Buddha was alive , were the nuns being abused ?
When Buddha was alive, Buddha was a man who left female (matriarchal) family life & lived with other lone men in forests & caves, looking for enlightenment. After Buddha gained enlightenment, he started a male monastic community, which spread the religion with monks often wandering alone around India, where many were attacked or killed. Because of the virtue, good reputation & social authority of these men, they were given donations of land to build forest monasteries.

Then later, the Buddha's aunty/mother, who was a royal Queen, wanted to join the respected male Sangha so the Buddha let the women join the Sangha as like "guests". Buddha had compassion for non-worldly women who are capable of reaching enlightenment. So Buddha made rules so worldly women could not boss the men around like a wife bosses around her husband & children.

In summary, obviously women were not abused in the Sangha when Buddha was alive (although some women probably self-abused themselves by craving for unnecessary things they could not get).
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

apeiron
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Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by apeiron » Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:15 am

Good point bro ,

But , if could ask you . Could we opt for this ?
Let the monks ordain themselves and lives by themselves .
Let the nuns ordain by themselves and lives by themselves .

Problem Solve !
:thanks:

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DooDoot
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Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by DooDoot » Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:29 am

apeiron wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:15 am
Good point bro ,
Thank you. As I inferred, Buddhism does not support the ideology of "victimhood" and does not say taking "offense" is a virtue. Buddhism teaches much abuse is "self-abuse", which comes from craving with ignorance.
apeiron wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:15 am
But , if could ask you . Could we opt for this ?
Let the monks ordain themselves and lives by themselves .
Let the nuns ordain by themselves and lives by themselves .
Any woman or group of women are free to start their own religion by themselves & live by themselves. Problem solve!

But to be part of the Buddhist Sangha, any person, be they man or woman, must uphold the reputation & teachings of Buddhism.

For example, the Buddhist scriptures say a Buddha that starts Buddhism in the world can only be a man. A female nun in Buddhism should be able to explain why a Samma-Sam-Buddha can only be a man & explain why the Buddha must be honored & respected with gratitude (rather than be disparaged as a "patriarch").

apeiron
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Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by apeiron » Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:38 am

But , fyi .

I dare not intervene with the Vinaya not to mention it is not in my territory and capability .
However , I wanted to point out , the main cause for the abusing does not come from Vinaya , but came from our own defiled mind !

Even , if the nuns lives by themselves and has a set of different vinaya , it will still has some types of abusing (by the women) one way or another ! Depending on what types of person you lives with .
:thanks:

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DooDoot
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Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by DooDoot » Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:45 am

apeiron wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:15 am
Let the nuns ordain by themselves and lives by themselves .
I like to listen to conspiracy videos on You Tube (when I am working). A conspiracy theory about Feminism is feminists believe they do not need men for traditional roles anymore because feminists can depend on the Big Brother government. But a problem here, according to these videos, is these left-wing ideas are creating more & more anarchy, violence & rape. So now women are starting to complain men no longer protect them anymore.

The Buddhist Vinaya was created in an ordinary world, with rules about how nuns must live in housing, for example, so they are protected from rape & attack. But some modern Western Buddhists feminists seem to believe our current Western world, which has some law & order, will remain permanently this way; that the government (rather than the virtue of the Sangha) will always be there to protect them. The view of permanence.
apeiron wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:15 am
Let the nuns ordain by themselves and lives by themselves. Problem Solve !
Good point bro. However, I have noticed every time there is a major fund (money) raising for a nun's monastery, the famous male monks do the campaigning to raise the money. I have yet to meet or see a female nun who can raise money & attract the big crowds of people.
apeiron wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:38 am
Even , if the nuns lives by themselves and has a set of different vinaya , it will still has some types of abusing (by the women) one way or another ! Depending on what types of person you lives with .
Personally, I do not think this point is relevant because it is individual persons rather than the Vinaya that abuses another. The topic of discussion you were involved in on the other website is about certain rules in the current Vinaya. This is relevant matter/topic.

Buddhism teaches "there is mother & father"; that is; there are both men & women in life we should be grateful towards. Buddhism was created & upheld by men.

For example, I watched a Western nun appearing proud on You Tube how she was now free because some rich people bought her a house or whatever donation she received from an entire community. But I knew this woman personally when she was lost & confused, roaming around Asia, and how we all helped her to improve her life. Even now she still mentions how a certain male monk teacher inspired her; yet she seems to think she is now free & independent of men in some way.
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:18 am, edited 3 times in total.

apeiron
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Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by apeiron » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:12 am

That's what I'm saying , somehow majority of women still Need and Wanted some protection from mens!
:thanks:

apeiron
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Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by apeiron » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:15 am

I doubt that majority of womens or nuns especially in Asia or south east Asia , even many developed countries , could lives by themselves without living nearby and has mens and monks guarding them .
:thanks:

apeiron
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Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by apeiron » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:26 am

Unfortunately , Buddha already long gone , it is not that simple . If anyone wants to change the vinaya and reforming it , and establish a new independent nuns sangha , they will have to bear the consequences !
What ever will be any kind of kamma , I suppose you have to wait and see .

Other than the Extra five points mentioned were practise by one of the monastery in Thailand which is not the major concern of others , the 8 garudhamma was not practise and adopted in many countries .

They only need to stay with the like minded people and monastery to have a better monastic life .
:thanks:

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DooDoot
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Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by DooDoot » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:30 am

Whatever small rules the Vinaya has that might not be necessary today can obviously be ignored, today. But this does not make those rules "abusive" & "oppressive" or "unwise". Nor are those rules necessarily "outdated" because society is always changing and any clear-minded person can see the world is moving more towards Dystopia rather than Utopia.
apeiron wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:26 am
They only need to stay with the like minded people and monastery to have a better monastic life .
Absolutely, just as any abused wise or abused husband can simply leave that abusive relationship & household. As I posted before, Buddhism does not teach the doctrine of "victimhood", which is a non-Buddhist Marxist doctrine.

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mikenz66
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Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:34 am

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