Victims of Buddhism

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
User avatar
kverty
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:48 am
Location: Sweden

Victims of Buddhism

Post by kverty » Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:43 pm

Yeah, this thread had to be created considering the atrocities carried out by buddhists against the rohingya in Myanmar.

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 11917
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by DNS » Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:48 pm

kverty wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:43 pm
Yeah, this thread had to be created considering the atrocities carried out by buddhists against the rohingya in Myanmar.
Are there victims of Buddhism? Or is it rather victims of geopolitical politics? I'd say it's rather complex and the latter. It involves migration, nationalism and many factors. Buddhism does not teach violence, so I'm not saying what is happening is okay or excusing the actions of people in that area who happen to be Buddhist.

What is happening is wrong, but it is not Buddhism that teaches to inflict violence on others.

User avatar
kverty
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:48 am
Location: Sweden

Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by kverty » Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:41 pm

DNS wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:48 pm
kverty wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:43 pm
Yeah, this thread had to be created considering the atrocities carried out by buddhists against the rohingya in Myanmar.
Are there victims of Buddhism? Or is it rather victims of geopolitical politics? I'd say it's rather complex and the latter. It involves migration, nationalism and many factors. Buddhism does not teach violence, so I'm not saying what is happening is okay or excusing the actions of people in that area who happen to be Buddhist.

What is happening is wrong, but it is not Buddhism that teaches to inflict violence on others.
Yeah well, they call themselves buddhist and are part of the buddhist community/sangha. As for not teaching violence, neither do communist political and economic theory, some people just happen to use violence to justify the means to an end. Capitalism isn't violent, or national-socialism in theory. My point is that "Victims of X" is based on a wrong perception of what X means...we should try to analyze the content of X instead of freely associate X with whatever from our experience. Just a thought, this thread was ironic, my apologies and metta to you all.

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 4605
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:35 pm

kverty wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:41 pm
DNS wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:48 pm
kverty wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:43 pm
Yeah, this thread had to be created considering the atrocities carried out by buddhists against the rohingya in Myanmar.
Are there victims of Buddhism? Or is it rather victims of geopolitical politics? I'd say it's rather complex and the latter. It involves migration, nationalism and many factors. Buddhism does not teach violence, so I'm not saying what is happening is okay or excusing the actions of people in that area who happen to be Buddhist.

What is happening is wrong, but it is not Buddhism that teaches to inflict violence on others.
Yeah well, they call themselves buddhist and are part of the buddhist community/sangha. As for not teaching violence, neither do communist political and economic theory, some people just happen to use violence to justify the means to an end. Capitalism isn't violent, or national-socialism in theory. My point is that "Victims of X" is based on a wrong perception of what X means...we should try to analyze the content of X instead of freely associate X with whatever from our experience. Just a thought, this thread was ironic, my apologies and metta to you all.
The irony is appreciated. So is the metta! :) Better to talk of "Victims of Buddhists" as it is clearly the people rather than the Dhamma itself at fault here. People who engage in violence and persecution, etc., do so despite Buddhism, not because of it.

With regard to communism, by the way, Marx himself seemed to have no problem with cataclysmic revolution, and others such as Lenin seemed to take a metaphysical delight in destruction which would appear to be at odds with any materialist conception of history.

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 11917
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by DNS » Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:06 pm

Marx, Engels, Lenin wrote:The theory of Marx and Engels of the inevitability of a violent revolution refers to the bourgeois state. The latter cannot be superseded by the proletarian state (the dictatorship of the proletariat) through the process of 'withering away", but, as a general rule, only through a violent revolution. The panegyric Engels sang in its honor, and which fully corresponds to Marx's repeated statements. (The State and Revolution, Chapter 1)
Buddha wrote:All beings tremble before danger, all fear death. When a man considers this, he does not kill or cause to kill. All beings fear before danger, life is dear to all. When a man considers this, he does not kill or cause to kill.” Dhammapada, 129-130

User avatar
kverty
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:48 am
Location: Sweden

Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by kverty » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:18 pm

DNS wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:06 pm
Marx, Engels, Lenin wrote:The theory of Marx and Engels of the inevitability of a violent revolution refers to the bourgeois state. The latter cannot be superseded by the proletarian state (the dictatorship of the proletariat) through the process of 'withering away", but, as a general rule, only through a violent revolution. The panegyric Engels sang in its honor, and which fully corresponds to Marx's repeated statements. (The State and Revolution, Chapter 1)
Buddha wrote:All beings tremble before danger, all fear death. When a man considers this, he does not kill or cause to kill. All beings fear before danger, life is dear to all. When a man considers this, he does not kill or cause to kill.” Dhammapada, 129-130
Why quote Marx? As much as he has contributed on the subject of political and economical theory his manifesto is nothing but a personal approach on how the communist society will eventually unfold, he has it's own branch which is called Marxism. There's other branches for example anarchist-communism, primitive communism and even christian communism, each has it's own thoughts...some believe that all means are justified and some believe that some degree of violence are necessary, I don't, I believe peace and non-violence is the only way to achieve a peaceful and harmonious society.
As capitalism and communism are diametrical opposites and can not co-exist (because capitalism requires private ownership over the means of production and communism the abolishment), the only way to reach a peaceful and harmonious co-existence is to allow each other to freely choose which type of society you prefer. But because capitalism have established hegemony over the world the choice to leave the system and create a new one isn't really that simple. If communism would be the dominant system I would gladly let those who wished to trade and establish private ownership do so as long as they didn't interfere or cause environmental damage that jeopardized the whole planets ecosystem...but which ever system one prefers, or thinks works best, as long as the Wheel of Dhamma turns in the world there's hope to leave all these systems behind. :)

JohnK
Posts: 672
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:06 pm
Location: Tetons, Wyoming, USA

Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by JohnK » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:24 pm

DNS wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:06 pm
Buddha wrote:All beings tremble before danger...” Dhammapada, 129-130
Big news: DW claims the Buddha WROTE! :shock:
:)
"...the practice is essentially a practice, and not a theory to be idly discussed...right view leaves unanswered many questions about the cosmos and the self, and directs your attention to what needs to be done to escape from the ravages of suffering." Thanissaro Bhikkhu, On The Path.

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 4605
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:37 pm

kverty wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:18 pm

Why quote Marx? As much as he has contributed on the subject of political and economical theory his manifesto is nothing but a personal approach on how the communist society will eventually unfold, he has it's own branch which is called Marxism.
Because none of the other forms of "communism" have had more than a tiny influence upon history, whereas the influence of Marxism has been colossal, with huge numbers of people living in countries claiming to be influenced by Marxist political and economic theory, some of which were capable of projecting military force well beyond their borders. And within many other countries, Marxist supporters have changed their countries' policies and cultures in numerous ways. In addition, Marx's claim that his materialist conception of history was the solely scientific approach meant that all succeeding political theories claiming communism as their goal have appeared to be impractical wishful thinking rather than realpolitik.

The other forms of communism that you cite have, by comparisn, created very few victims; probably because their access to power has been negligible.

User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 3375
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by Mr Man » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:51 pm

Tatmadaw, Sangha and government must work together, Sitagu Sayadaw says in sermon to officers

https://frontiermyanmar.net/en/tatmadaw ... o-officers

Not all Buddhists agree with Sitagu Sayadaw’s militant message

https://coconuts.co/yangon/news/not-bud ... t-message/

User avatar
kverty
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:48 am
Location: Sweden

Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by kverty » Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:09 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:37 pm
kverty wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:18 pm

Why quote Marx? As much as he has contributed on the subject of political and economical theory his manifesto is nothing but a personal approach on how the communist society will eventually unfold, he has it's own branch which is called Marxism.
Because none of the other forms of "communism" have had more than a tiny influence upon history, whereas the influence of Marxism has been colossal, with huge numbers of people living in countries claiming to be influenced by Marxist political and economic theory, some of which were capable of projecting military force well beyond their borders. And within many other countries, Marxist supporters have changed their countries' policies and cultures in numerous ways. In addition, Marx's claim that his materialist conception of history was the solely scientific approach meant that all succeeding political theories claiming communism as their goal have appeared to be impractical wishful thinking rather than realpolitik.

The other forms of communism that you cite have, by comparisn, created very few victims; probably because their access to power has been negligible.
Yeah well I could invent something like "pacifist communism" or "spiritual communism" or whatever, which aspire to the same society but through different means, right? You need to differentiate between what actions lead to an authoritarian state or democratic state, a free society or totalitarian society etc...all means are not justified. Marx where clearly biased from his own time when revolutionary ideas where prevalent in the industrial society. I don't condone any of the atrocities carried out by communists, I only consider it a great tragedy that so many thinks violence to be the only way reach peace.

User avatar
kverty
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:48 am
Location: Sweden

Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by kverty » Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:33 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:51 pm
Tatmadaw, Sangha and government must work together, Sitagu Sayadaw says in sermon to officers

https://frontiermyanmar.net/en/tatmadaw ... o-officers

Not all Buddhists agree with Sitagu Sayadaw’s militant message

https://coconuts.co/yangon/news/not-bud ... t-message/
Thet Swe Win is of course right. For me it's kind of difficult to mix up buddhism with hate or terror...but maybe muslims and christians feels the same way, I mean anyone can justify whatever they feel. If a set of conditions is favorable. Just like dependent co-arising is taught...

User avatar
bodom
Posts: 6263
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by bodom » Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:57 pm

This thread should be more aptly named Victims of hate and delusion. What these people are doing has not a thing to do with Buddhism or the Buddhas teachings. They are Buddhist in name only. The only killing the Buddha approved of is the killing of anger. It's a damn shame what's going on but it has not a thing to do with Buddhism as its meant to be practiced. You won't find a shred of Buddhist scripture to support the actions of these people so they cannot accurately be called Buddhists or even to be remotely following the teachings of the Buddha.

:namaste:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

User avatar
kverty
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:48 am
Location: Sweden

Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by kverty » Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:12 pm

bodom wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:57 pm
This thread should be more aptly named Victims of hate and delusion. What these people are doing has not a thing to do with Buddhism or the Buddhas teachings. They are Buddhist in name only. The only killing the Buddha approved of is the killing of anger. It's a damn shame what's going on but it has not a thing to do with Buddhism as its meant to be practiced. You won't find a shred of Buddhist scripture to support the actions of these people so they cannot accurately be called Buddhists or even to be remotely following the teachings of the Buddha.

:namaste:
Exactly! Victims by hate and delusion is by their very nature defined by their actions! But far from their nature; we have capitalism, communism, fascism, nazism...but if you could point to violence inherent in any political or economical philosophy then be my guest. My point is, analyze the contents, and decide from a logical point of view.

User avatar
L.N.
Posts: 504
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:01 pm

Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by L.N. » Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:05 am

bodom wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:57 pm
... They are Buddhist in name only. ...
Yes, that's part of the problem. Actions demonstrate to others what "Buddhism" means. Same with "Islam." Same with "Christian." The actions taken by Buddhist monks against Rohingya in Myanmar and also in Sri Lanka where they fled will certainly color the perception of Buddhism whether we like it or not. (As do statements made here on Dhamma Wheel, by the way.)



Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 4605
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Victims of Buddhism

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:31 am

kverty wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:09 pm
Yeah well I could invent something like "pacifist communism" or "spiritual communism" or whatever, which aspire to the same society but through different means, right? You need to differentiate between what actions lead to an authoritarian state or democratic state, a free society or totalitarian society etc...all means are not justified. Marx where clearly biased from his own time when revolutionary ideas where prevalent in the industrial society. I don't condone any of the atrocities carried out by communists, I only consider it a great tragedy that so many thinks violence to be the only way reach peace.
The point is that you haven't invented something like "pacifist communism" or "spiritual communism", so the question of victims does not arise. Where people have (on the "Victims of Communism" thread) talked about victims, they have talked about real victims. Marx's ideas of violent revolution and the dictatorship of the proletariat have led to real victims by the multiple million. I thought that this thread was talking about the real world, rather than one in which imaginary counter-factual entities cause victims.

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests