Activism supporting Rohingya

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chownah
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Re: Activism supporting Rohingya

Post by chownah » Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:48 am

Doodoot,
can you please come down to earth and get back on topic.....and take a reasonably small bite of the history of everything (hopefully one associated with the topic) and chew it politely.....only if you want to.....
chownah
Last edited by retrofuturist on Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: reference to "propaganda mode" removed

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Re: Activism supporting Rohingya

Post by DooDoot » Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:00 am

chownah wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:48 am
propoganda mode
Thanks but this sounds irrational based on the real statistics; which is why the above is unsubstantiated.
retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:33 am
Thanks for the data points, but are you able to tie that back specifically to the current Rohingya scenario being discussed?
It ties back specifically to the current Rohingya scenario because it is part of the Oppression Olympics that was posted, which referred to 'Muslims' as #1 rather than 'Rohingya'. In short, since 9/11 (and prior), its OK to murder Muslims because they are Muslims.

It does not matter how many genuine or dodgy quotes are made from the Koran, the reality is Islam is not against the West and has never attacked the West probably since the battle for Vienna in 1683.

For students of history (rather than adherents of the mass media), after the fall of the British Empire, most Muslim nations, such as Iran, Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Indonesia and maybe Libya embraced democracy but the USA worked to install dictators in those countries. DYOR.
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Re: Activism supporting Rohingya

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:09 am

Greetings DooDoot,
DooDoot wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:00 am
In short, since 9/11 (and prior), its OK to murder Muslims because they are Muslims.
Is it? According to whom exactly?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Activism supporting Rohingya

Post by DooDoot » Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:12 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:09 am
Is it? According to whom exactly?
According to the majority, who support the US govt & media narrative that "Islam hates our Western values". In your Olympics post, you appeared to call the actual wars against Muslim nations a "narrative". You seemed to infer Muslims have nothing to complain about. As for your metta, I think it is best radiated towards all beings; to create clear vision.
This is said to be the sublime abiding.
By not holding to fixed views,
The pure-hearted one, having clarity of vision.

Metta Sutta
Muslims do not hate us. Muslims like immigrating to Western countries for the lifestyle. I had my blood taken this morning by a Bangladeshi pathologist wearing a Hijab. Nice lady. One million Muslims in Australia, 1/25 of the population. 1 terrorist act performed by an Iranian the Iran govt warned was a criminal but the Australian govt embraced as a persecuted person. All the Aussies could do was lay flowers in Martin Place.
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Re: Activism supporting Rohingya

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:20 am

Greetings DooDoot,

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:09 am
Is it? According to whom exactly?
DooDoot wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:12 am
According to the majority, who ...
Hold on. So literally the majority of people advocate killing Muslims for being Muslims? Really?...

Personally, I've never in my life met anyone who would suggest anything so preposterous. Unless you've got any polls and studies that validate this, this is nothing more than unbelievable hyperbole.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Activism supporting Rohingya

Post by DooDoot » Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:25 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:20 am
Hold on. So literally the majority of people advocate killing Muslims for being Muslims? Really?...
Based on the principle of democracy, certainly yes literally. US, UK & Australian military forces were active in Afghanistan, Iraq & Syria and supported the intervention in Libya. As democracies, the majority of citizens, by default, literally supported these unwarranted wars.
retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:20 am
Personally, I've never in my life met anyone who would suggest anything so preposterous. Unless you've got any polls and studies that validate this, this is nothing more than unbelievable hyperbole.
Well, my impression was your Olympics post inferred Muslim persecution is mere propaganda & unwarranted. Thus it supported the murdering of Muslims & Rohingya by trivializing their situation. How else would a reasonable person view this image below?

Image

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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Activism supporting Rohingya

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:30 am

Tillerson: Myanmar clearly 'ethnic cleansing' the Rohingya

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/11/22/polit ... index.html
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br

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Re: Activism supporting Rohingya

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:36 am

Greetings DooDoot,
DooDoot wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:25 am
Well, my impression was your Olympics post inferred Muslim persecution is mere propaganda & unwarranted.
No, not at all.
DooDoot wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:25 am
How else would a reasonable person view this image below?
The diagram represents the typical outcomes from a process known as the Oppression Olympics
The Oppression Olympics have been described as a contest within a group, to "assert who is more authentic, more oppressed, and thus more correct". This may be on the basis of one's race, gender, sexuality, among other stated or ascribed identities.

A person's stated or ascribed identity "become[s] fetishised" within the group and judged in preconceived essentialist terms. There is a dynamic "of agreeing with the most marginalized in the room".

Stoyan Francis described "The gold medal of the Oppression Olympics is seen as the commanding spot for demanding change, for visibility and allocation of resources".
Just as the "dynamic of agreeing with the most marginalized in the room" and determining who is "more oppressed, and thus more correct" plays out in the sphere of Cultural Marxist activism, so too can it play out in the media, especially when the media is so heavily represented by virtue-signalling Cultural Marxists, and are often owned by globalists.

So, if we set aside the collectivist thinking of the Oppression Olympics, we can see that:

- Someone is not automatically "right" or "wrong" based on identity classifications
- Someone is not automatically "in the right" or "in the wrong" based on identity classifications

That conclusion really should be self-evident, but it will rarely be admitted by those who are partisan, especially those who benefit from the application of collectivist (as opposed to individual) logic.

Through the lens of the suttas we can see that "right" and "wrong" is an individual, not collective quality, and that it is determined by the quality of mind, not external adjudication... especially not external adjudication which is collectivist in nature.

This conclusion, rooted in the Buddha's doctrine of kamma, applies to all scenarios, thus it also applies here.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Activism supporting Rohingya

Post by DooDoot » Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:42 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:36 am
Just as the "dynamic of agreeing with the most marginalized in the room" and determining who is "more oppressed, and thus more correct" plays out in the sphere of Cultural Marxist activism, so too can it play out in the media, especially when the media is so heavily represented by virtue-signalling Cultural Marxists, and are often owned by globalists.
On September 11, 2001, there was an event which lead to large scale vilification & demonisation of Islam and a series of wars or hoped for wars across the Middle-East. This does not appear to be Cultural Marxism but something deadly & real.


retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:36 am
That conclusion really should be self-evident, but it will rarely be admitted by those who are partisan, especially those who benefit from the application of collectivist (as opposed to individual) logic.
Saying this does not make it not apply to the one who says it. Personally, I think Islam is not ideal. I have no partisan allegiance to Islam. However, when Australia made war against Iraq in 2003 or whenever, this was immoral & unjustified because Iraq did not threaten Australia or the United States.
retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:36 am
Through the lens of the suttas we can see that "right" and "wrong" is an individual, not collective quality, and that it is determined by the quality of mind, not external adjudication... especially not external adjudication which is collectivist in nature.
Funny how you jump from the doctrine of Oppression Olympics to the Pali suttas; as though the Buddha would agree with the doctrine of Oppression Olympics. Regardless, I would say the above comment is through the lens of Retrofuturist rather than related to the Pali suttas. The doctrine of kamma is mostly irrelevant to the case of the Rohingya; which is an ethic cleansing for economic or other grounds. The Pali suttas do not say the victims of Angulimala were killed by Angulimala do to their intentional kamma.
retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:36 am
This conclusion, rooted in the Buddha's doctrine of kamma, applies to all scenarios, thus it also applies here.
Thru my personal lens, the relevant kamma is - as an individual person - you form part of a democracy & a member of this public forum and your personal individual actions may influence the killing of Rohingya. It was individuals who protested & helped end the Vietnam War. This is the relevant kamma. As was taught in SN 55.7, are we speaking in praise of non-killing?
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:14 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Activism supporting Rohingya

Post by chownah » Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:59 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:36 am
Greetings DooDoot,
DooDoot wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:25 am
Well, my impression was your Olympics post inferred Muslim persecution is mere propaganda & unwarranted.
No, not at all.
Yes it does. This is the unintended consequence of your posting about your beloved "oppression olypmics".
The oppression olympics is a meme created by political activists on the right. It is liked by many because it has an element of humor.....and like alot of humor it is an exageration. The oppression olympics started as a humorous sketch and it immediately took root in the minds of some people on the right who spread it around with the result being that conservatives who are not so discerning of what is actually and really on peoples minds accepted it at face value and interpretted it to mean that the problems which minorities face are exaggerations and do not deserve to be taken seriously and addressed. ONe could say that this is an unintended conssequence and it probably is for some people (like you) but for alot of political operatives it is exactly the intended consequence.

The "oppression olympics" is a repressive tool used by the winners of the "oppresive olympics" where the ones who reach the gold are the ones who are the most white, christian, coersive, and violent.

The "oppression olympics" is used to divide people and I don't mean that the oppressed people are intent on division....I mean that it is the winners of the "oppresive olympics" that have that intention.....it is the winners of the "oppresive olympics" which proliferate the concept of the "oppression olympics" mostly and mostly not the oppressed people of the world.
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Re: Activism supporting Rohingya

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:16 am

Greetings chownah,
chownah wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:59 am
This is the unintended consequence of your posting about your beloved "oppression olypmics".
Binocular already responded to your earlier comment about "unintended consequence" here. I'll take her words as my own.

Let me be clear... Words have meaning. If the reader introduces things neither said nor implied by those words, then that's on the reader.

The "unintentional consequence" of your drastic misreading and misrepresentation of what is said, means that it would be a waste of your my time and yours for me to construct a response, since you've pretty much inverted and shown no comprehension of what was said.

Nowhere did I say the "Oppression Olympics" is "beloved".... the practice of vying for prestigious title of "most oppressed" seems ridiculous to me.

If you wish to argue with yourself, by all means please do, but have the decency to leave me out of it.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Activism supporting Rohingya

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:21 am

Greetings DooDoot,
DooDoot wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:42 am
Funny how you jump from the doctrine of Oppression Olympics to the Pali suttas; as though the Buddha would agree with the doctrine of Oppression Olympics.
Are you serious? That's not what I said. Please read what is said. Listen properly this time... emphasis added...
So, if we set aside the collectivist thinking of the Oppression Olympics, we can see that:

- Someone is not automatically "right" or "wrong" based on identity classifications
- Someone is not automatically "in the right" or "in the wrong" based on identity classifications

That conclusion really should be self-evident, but it will rarely be admitted by those who are partisan, especially those who benefit from the application of collectivist (as opposed to individual) logic.

Through the lens of the suttas we can see that "right" and "wrong" is an individual, not collective quality, and that it is determined by the quality of mind, not external adjudication... especially not external adjudication which is collectivist in nature.

This conclusion, rooted in the Buddha's doctrine of kamma, applies to all scenarios, thus it also applies here.
Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Activism supporting Rohingya

Post by L.N. » Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:47 am

chownah wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:28 am
I'm not talking about what what your intended message is.....I'm talking about what the uninformed reader can very easily take from your post.....I'm talking about the unintended consequence.
chownah
I agree with this perspective. The dynamic of potential radicalization of Rohingya Muslims has been reported in mainstream media. E.g., From its start four years ago as a small-scale effort to organize a Rohingya resistance, ARSA — which is known locally as Harakah al-Yaqin, or the Faith Movement — has managed to stage two deadly attacks on Myanmar’s security forces: one last October and the other last month.

But in lashing out against the government, the militants have also made their own people a target. And they have handed Myanmar’s military an attempt at public justification by saying that it is fighting terrorism, even as it has burned down dozens of villages and killed fleeing women and children.


The France 24 video is informative, but the political blog entry is hostile toward Islam with comments such as the following: "... Muslims have NO respect for the Buddhist people and culture, and will destroy any Buddhist temples, monasteries, and holy places ..." Such a blanket statement simply has no basis in fact. Many Muslims have respect for Buddhist people and culture. E.g. Foundations for Muslim-Buddhist Interfaith Dialogue.

The issue here is the avenue for discussion. DW is a forum devoted to Buddhist discussion of the Dhamma. There are other avenues for commentary about why Islam allegedly is bad, why Rakhine Muslims allegedly are terrorists, etc. Here, such discussion comes across the wrong way and can create a misperception of Buddhism. This is a legitimate concern for those who care about being part of a forum where people who are drawn to Dhamma actually feel welcome to hear it. I sense that many Muslims would feel uncomfortable visiting DW or participating here, given some of the manner of discussion.

It's not necessarily wrong to have these discussions. I am not persuaded that DW is the correct venue. However, this is not my decision.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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Re: Activism supporting Rohingya

Post by DooDoot » Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:02 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:21 am
Please read what is said. Listen properly this time...
If I read it wrong then this would appear make what I read about kamma irrelevant to the topic. The topic seems to be, for the most part, about a defenseless group of people called the Rohingya who are being persecuted & ethically cleansed for control of oil & gas land; similar to how the Burmese govt has cleansed other minority groups. Thus, as Buddhists, I think we should take the moral position & have compassion (karuna) for these people, regardless of their religion. The Buddhist position is to try to discern what is evil & what is good and side with the good & just.
137. He who inflicts violence on those who are unarmed, and offends those who are inoffensive, will soon come upon one of these ten states:

138-140 Sharp pain, or disaster, bodily injury, serious illness, or derangement of mind, trouble from the government, or grave charges, loss of relatives, or loss of wealth, or houses destroyed by ravaging fire; upon dissolution of the body that ignorant man is born in hell.

256. Not by passing arbitrary judgments does a man become just; a wise man is he who investigates both right and wrong.

257. He who does not judge others arbitrarily, but passes judgment impartially according to the truth, that sagacious man is a guardian of law and is called just.

318. Those who imagine evil where there is none, and do not see evil where it is — upholding false views, they go to states of woe.

319. Those who discern the wrong as wrong and the right as right — upholding right views, they go to realms of bliss.

Dhammapada

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Re: Activism supporting Rohingya

Post by DooDoot » Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:08 am

L.N. wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:47 am
ARSA — which is known locally as Harakah al-Yaqin, or the Faith Movement — has managed to stage two deadly attacks on Myanmar’s security forces: one last October and the other last month.
ARSA, like ISIS, appear to be a Saudi funded group, lead by Saudis. Take care with this because the Saudis are reported to have an economic interest in the Rakine area, which has oil & gas. An Islamic militia would provide complete justification for full-scale Burmese offensive. Violent world. :|

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Re: Activism supporting Rohingya

Post by L.N. » Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:53 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:08 am
L.N. wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:47 am
ARSA — which is known locally as Harakah al-Yaqin, or the Faith Movement — has managed to stage two deadly attacks on Myanmar’s security forces: one last October and the other last month.
ARSA, like ISIS, appear to be a Saudi funded group, lead by Saudis. Take care with this because the Saudis are reported to have an economic interest in the Rakine area, which has oil & gas. An Islamic militia would provide complete justification for full-scale Burmese offensive. Violent world. :|
Yes, it is a nuanced topic. But there is no doubt that media reports of rapes and murdering children are not just a bunch of "fake news" intended to promote a PC perspective favorable to Muslims. There is a real tragedy underway, and the response of self-identified Buddhists has not always been the greatest, as seen in Sri Lanka, and as seen by some of the dismissiveness and occasional anti-Islamic tone of discussions here on DW. This is not a complaint. It is an unfortunate reality we have to live with.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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Re: Activism supporting Rohingya

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:08 am

Greetings,
DooDoot wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:02 am
If I read it wrong then this would appear make what I read about kamma irrelevant to the topic.
Not really. Kamma is action, and if we're not concerned about the actions performed by certain individuals then why would this topic exist?

Kamma also, is strictly individual...

It recognizes that a person can do good actions.
It recognizes that a person can do bad actions.
It recognizes that a person can do kammically-neutral actions.
It doesn't recognize "sides".
We should take the moral position & have compassion (karuna) for these people, regardless of their religion.

Agreed.
The Buddhist position is to try to discern what is evil & what is good and side with the good & just.
Correct, good and evil (kusala and akusala) are functions of kamma.... and thus good and evil pertains to individuals, not groups. We discern what is evil and good in accordance with the teachings of the Blessed One

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Activism supporting Rohingya

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:19 am

Greetings,

Heads up... disruptive off-topic meta-discussion has been removed.

:focus:

Thanks people.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Activism supporting Rohingya

Post by Mr Man » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:21 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:36 am
DooDoot wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:25 am
How else would a reasonable person view this image below?
The diagram represents the typical outcomes from a process known as the Oppression Olympics
Hi Paul
How does the diagram represent typical outcomes? Isn't it just fictitious and based on the creators prejudice?

Did you feel it wasn't relevant to this topic because Muslims were at the top?

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Re: Activism supporting Rohingya

Post by chownah » Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:52 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:16 am
Greetings chownah,
chownah wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:59 am
This is the unintended consequence of your posting about your beloved "oppression olypmics".
Let me be clear... Words have meaning. If the reader introduces things neither said nor implied by those words, then that's on the reader.
Let's be really clear....words have more than one meaning...messages composed of words can have subtexts and subtexts may be intended or unintended. Divisive politicos like the "oppression olympic" meme in that their intended subtext (suffering minorities are just whiners) can always just be declared an unintended subtext and then to blame it on the reader......I think that "its on the reader" is an example of "virtue signaling".
retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:16 am
The "unintentional consequence" of your drastic misreading and misrepresentation of what is said, means that it would be a waste of your my time and yours for me to construct a response, since you've pretty much inverted and shown no comprehension of what was said.
I think I understand what you say about identity politics and I agree with alot of it as far as you go with it but really the subject has many dimensions which you never seem to explore. If I thought that the "oppression olympic" meme could help in undoing identity politics I would embrace it wholeheartedly....but I don't see that it does that. I see it as being a sat night live type humorous skit which is being used by the right to maintain identity politics and to trivialize real suffering in the world. I do not think that this is your intent.....but I think this is what too often happens.
retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:16 am
Nowhere did I say the "Oppression Olympics" is "beloved".... the practice of vying for prestigious title of "most oppressed" seems ridiculous to me.
I said it is your beloved....you seem to cling to it and defend it very rigorously. People tell you what their impressions of the "oppression olympics" are and you go into denial/blame.
Vying for a title of most oppresse is ridiculous......it doesn't happen in any relevant way in the world except as a meme in the minds of right wing politicos who falsely attribute its existence to the left wing. I don't think that I have ever seen references to "oppression olympics" except for from you and the things you have pointed at.....other than that it is very very obscure.....so obscure that to reference it in any way that is meant to apply to the world is ridiculous.
retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:16 am
If you wish to argue with yourself, by all means please do, but have the decency to leave me out of it.
More virtue signaling.

Why not just forget supporting the divisive meme and just use a good logical exposition on identity politics......but don't forget to include how identity politics is used to isolate groups and mount societal pressure against them.

chownah

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