What is it about Hollywood?

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chownah
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Re: What is it about Hollywood?

Post by chownah » Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:37 am

binocular wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:34 am
chownah wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:30 am
Wealth, fame, and power, in the business of selling make believe.
But apparently, there is something that makes make-believe so attractive. What is that?
That is another topic.
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retrofuturist
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Re: What is it about Hollywood?

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:42 am

Greetings,
chownah wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:37 am
That is another topic.
It could warrant a topic in itself, but since the attraction of "make-believe" is so entwined in acting and the Hollywood culture, I'm happy for it be spoken of in this one...

UPDATE: But I see you've created a new one anyway, so here's the link...

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

binocular
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Re: What is it about Hollywood?

Post by binocular » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:42 pm

As for make-believe -- reveling in fabrications:

SN 56:46 Andhakāra Sutta | Darkness — The intergalactic darkness is smaller and less frightening than the darkness that comes from reveling in fabrications.
“There is, monks, an inter-cosmic [intergalactic?] void, an unrestrained darkness, a pitch-black darkness, where even the light of the sun & moon—so mighty, so powerful—doesn’t reach.”
When this was said, one of the monks said to the Blessed One, “Wow, what a great darkness! What a really great darkness! Is there any darkness greater & more frightening than that?”
“There is, monk, a darkness greater & more frightening than that.”
“And which darkness, lord, is greater & more frightening than that?”
“Any contemplatives or brahmans who do not know, as it has come to be, that ‘This is stress’; who do not know, as it has come to be, that ‘This is the origination of stress’ … ‘This is the cessation of stress’ … ‘This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress’: They revel in fabrications leading to birth; they revel in fabrications leading to aging; they revel in fabrications leading to death; they revel in fabrications leading to sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. Reveling in fabrications leading to birth… aging… death… sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, they fabricate fabrications leading to birth… aging… death… sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. Fabricating fabrications leading to birth… aging… death… sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, they drop into the darkness of birth. They drop into the darkness of aging… the darkness of death… darkness of sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. They are not totally released from birth, aging, death, sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. They are not totally released, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN56_46.html
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

santa100
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Re: What is it about Hollywood?

Post by santa100 » Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:03 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Why is Hollywood such a cesspool of sexual abuse, drug abuse, paedophilia, misogyny, sanctimonious virtue signalling, fraud, crime, hypocrisy, cultural Marxism, cover-ups, pervertion, hedonism and other forms of moral and spiritual degeneracy?

Whilst I'm happy to hear "conventional" explanations about Hollywood's ethical malaise, I'm particularly interested in anything that someone might be able to present from the context of the Dhamma, which might give clarity to the origins of such depravity.
Simple case in point, why did Harvey Weinstein commit such horrible things against women? The simple answer is: because he can. For such a long time, not a single person was able to even touch him and the horrible acts kept going on and on for 20 plus years!

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Re: What is it about Hollywood?

Post by Cittasanto » Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:31 pm

Hi Paul,
I believe due to the amount of money, power, influence in Hollywood (or other institutions) an echo chamber arises where power and influence (and someones perceived power & influence in the level they are) promotes idealism when they are not in a position of power in the hierarchy, so a subservient mindset develops which promotes and idealism becomes the escape. Look at Sony, they have apparently been in trouble for a long time but went to idealism and attacks when promoting the new Ghostbusters. and many of the people I have heard could have reported the current scandal (which was an obvious open "secret") are some of the most idealists in Hollywood.

Kind Regards
Cittasanto
retrofuturist wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:03 am
Greetings,

(I'm not interested in discussing individual scandals in this topic, although it is the increased prevalence of such scandals that is prompting this question...)

What is it about Hollywood?

Why is Hollywood such a cesspool of sexual abuse, drug abuse, paedophilia, misogyny, sanctimonious virtue signalling, fraud, crime, hypocrisy, cultural Marxism, cover-ups, pervertion, hedonism and other forms of moral and spiritual degeneracy?

Whilst I'm happy to hear "conventional" explanations about Hollywood's ethical malaise, I'm particularly interested in anything that someone might be able to present from the context of the Dhamma, which might give clarity to the origins of such depravity.

To get things started...

SN 42.2: Talaputa Sutta
On one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrel's Sanctuary.

Then Talaputa, the head of an acting troupe, went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, I have heard that it has been passed down by the ancient teaching lineage of actors that 'When an actor on the stage, in the midst of a festival, makes people laugh & gives them delight with his imitation of reality, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of the laughing devas.' What does the Blessed One have to say about that?"

"Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask me that."

A second time... A third time Talaputa, the head of an acting troupe, said: "Lord, I have heard that it has been passed down by the ancient teaching lineage of actors that 'When an actor on the stage, in the midst of a festival, makes people laugh & gives them delight with his imitation of reality, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of the laughing devas.' What does the Blessed One have to say about that?"

"Apparently, headman, I haven't been able to get past you by saying, 'Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask me that.' So I will simply answer you. Any beings who are not devoid of passion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of passion, focus with even more passion on things inspiring passion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Any beings who are not devoid of aversion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of aversion, focus with even more aversion on things inspiring aversion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Any beings who are not devoid of delusion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of delusion, focus with even more delusion on things inspiring delusion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Thus the actor — himself intoxicated & heedless, having made others intoxicated & heedless — with the breakup of the body, after death, is reborn in what is called the hell of laughter. But if he holds such a view as this: 'When an actor on the stage, in the midst of a festival, makes people laugh & gives them delight with his imitation of reality, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of the laughing devas,' that is his wrong view. Now, there are two destinations for a person with wrong view, I tell you: either hell or the animal womb."

When this was said, Talaputa, the head of an acting troupe, sobbed & burst into tears. [The Blessed One said:] "That is what I couldn't get past you by saying, 'Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask me that.'"

"I'm not crying, lord, because of what the Blessed One said to me, but simply because I have been deceived, cheated, & fooled for a long time by that ancient teaching lineage of actors who said: 'When an actor on the stage, in the midst of a festival, makes people laugh & gives them delight with his imitation of reality, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of the laughing devas.'

"Magnificent, lord! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place upright what was overturned, to reveal what was hidden, to show the way to one who was lost, or to carry a lamp into the dark so that those with eyes could see forms, in the same way has the Blessed One — through many lines of reasoning — made the Dhamma clear. I go to the Blessed One for refuge, to the Dhamma, and to the Community of monks. May the Blessed One remember me as a lay follower who has gone to him for refuge, from this day forward, for life."
May we learn from the mistakes of others and not replicate their degeneracy.

:namaste:

I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

Metta,
Paul. :)
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Re: What is it about Hollywood?

Post by phil » Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:01 am

Why is Hollywood such a cesspool of sexual abuse, drug abuse, paedophilia, misogyny, sanctimonious virtue signalling, fraud, crime, hypocrisy, cultural Marxism, cover-ups, pervertion, hedonism and other forms of moral and spiritual degeneracy?
I wonder if this is an accurate depiction but assuming it is temember that the Buddha saw the world (the mind) burning with greed, anger and ignorance and throw a lot of money, a lot of leisure time, a lot of creative and financial pressure leading to a lot of drugs and alcohol influencing a lot of people driven to succeed at creating something and there you go. But that is an imponderable isn't it?

P.S also add physically attractive/charismatic people succeeding at something difficult and the sense of accomplishment that goes with it. Accomplishment in the world tends to lead to negligence and a sense of the world as one's playground or conquering ground, I guess.
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

binocular
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Re: What is it about Hollywood?

Post by binocular » Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:31 am

phil wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:01 am
Why is Hollywood such a cesspool of sexual abuse, drug abuse, paedophilia, misogyny, sanctimonious virtue signalling, fraud, crime, hypocrisy, cultural Marxism, cover-ups, pervertion, hedonism and other forms of moral and spiritual degeneracy?
I wonder if this is an accurate depiction
It's inaccurate inasmuch as several of the items listed above are not considered examples of abuse or "spiritual degeneracy" by all people.

Hedonism and virtue signalling, for example, are not universally considered moral or spiritual degeneracy; in fact, not just a few consider them virtuous.

What some religious people consider sexual abuse, drug abuse, misogyny, some people don't consider to be abuse at all.

As for fraud, hypocrisy, cover-ups, they are not rarely considered acts of self-preservation, and self-preservation is generally not considered to be a form of moral and spiritual degeneracy.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Re: What is it about Hollywood?

Post by Mr Man » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:30 am

binocular wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:31 am
phil wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:01 am
Why is Hollywood such a cesspool of sexual abuse, drug abuse, paedophilia, misogyny, sanctimonious virtue signalling, fraud, crime, hypocrisy, cultural Marxism, cover-ups, pervertion, hedonism and other forms of moral and spiritual degeneracy?
I wonder if this is an accurate depiction
It's inaccurate inasmuch as several of the items listed above are not considered examples of abuse or "spiritual degeneracy" by all people.

Hedonism and virtue signalling, for example, are not universally considered moral or spiritual degeneracy; in fact, not just a few consider them virtuous.

What some religious people consider sexual abuse, drug abuse, misogyny, some people don't consider to be abuse at all.

As for fraud, hypocrisy, cover-ups, they are not rarely considered acts of self-preservation, and self-preservation is generally not considered to be a form of moral and spiritual degeneracy.
And also because it has not been shown sexual abuse, drug abuse, paedophilia etc. is more prevalent in Hollywood than elsewhere. In my opinion the OP is based on a false premise and very obviously agenda driven.

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Re: What is it about Hollywood?

Post by phil » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:56 am

I looked up "virtue signaling" and found it a very sad notion. Nobody knows what cittas condition what appears to be virtuous behavior and I think it is pretty small-minded to decide that someone's intentions are not wholesome. Also as many of us know, wholesome behavior, including generosity towards/concern fir those in need arises from a sea of akusala and takes ages to get established in most cases. Good morality is good morality even if prompted. It's just not as strong.
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

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Sam Vara
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Re: What is it about Hollywood?

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:41 am

phil wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:56 am
I looked up "virtue signaling" and found it a very sad notion. Nobody knows what cittas condition what appears to be virtuous behavior and I think it is pretty small-minded to decide that someone's intentions are not wholesome. Also as many of us know, wholesome behavior, including generosity towards/concern fir those in need arises from a sea of akusala and takes ages to get established in most cases. Good morality is good morality even if prompted. It's just not as strong.
Do you mean that the term should not be used? It would be difficult to make a convincing case for this, as it merely denotes a type of hypocrisy that has been subject to ethical condemnation in many times and cultures. The Buddha himself criticised and singled out monks who - by wearing the robes - implicitly lay claim to the holy life while being inwardly corrupt. We cannot be certain that a person's virtue is feigned, of course, but that same lack of certainty does not prevent us from criticising many other forms of perceived immorality. Indeed, if we cannot know the mind of the one accused of virtue-signalling, then likewise we cannot know the mind of the one who accuses him/her of it.

Virtue-signalling might be "good morality" in the sense that, even in the most flagrant examples where people merely parrot received virtues while doing nothing to embody or further them, they are at least publicising the meaning of that virtue. But in terms of the Dhamma, this would not be too skillful. Virtue-signalling has the intention of merely signalling virtue, and thereby misrepresenting the truth about us.

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Re: What is it about Hollywood?

Post by Pseudobabble » Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:08 am

Mr Man wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:30 am
And also because it has not been shown sexual abuse, drug abuse, paedophilia etc. is more prevalent in Hollywood than elsewhere. In my opinion the OP is based on a false premise and very obviously agenda driven.


Do you believe that power tends to encourage ethical or unethical behaviour?

Do you believe that excess of wealth tends to encourage ethical or unethical behaviour?

Do you believe that (very free) access to sensual pleasures coupled with a hedonistic outlook tends to encourage indulgence or abstinence?

Do you believe that having your livelihood dependent (more than most) on other's perceptions of your physical attractiveness would tend to encourage healthy or unhealthy behaviour?


Whether or not such things are more prevalent in Hollywood than elsewhere (and while I believe they are more prevalent there, I'm sure we can find other places where they are more prevalent), they are certainly more visible when they occur. Who cares about Joe Blogg's drug and wife-beating habits? The media certainly don't, and so we don't even know about them. But Harvey Weinstein? A huge target, literally.

Combine that with the oh so obvious delight humans take in throwing down and trampling their idols, and the conscious and unconscious mirroring of the behaviour of others which humans do, and the relative prevalence of such behaviour in Hollywood vs elsewhere becomes less relevant, when contrasted to the fact that when such behaviour occurs in Hollywood, it is broadcast direct to your living room, whereas when it occurs elsewhere, we don't even know.


TL;DR: It is more prevalent in Hollywood because of the social conditions there, but even so, what is more relevant is how visible it is, and how that visibility affects the rest of society.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


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Re: What is it about Hollywood?

Post by Mr Man » Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:41 am

Pseudobabble wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:08 am
Mr Man wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:30 am
And also because it has not been shown sexual abuse, drug abuse, paedophilia etc. is more prevalent in Hollywood than elsewhere. In my opinion the OP is based on a false premise and very obviously agenda driven.


Do you believe that power tends to encourage ethical or unethical behaviour?

Do you believe that excess of wealth tends to encourage ethical or unethical behaviour?

Do you believe that (very free) access to sensual pleasures coupled with a hedonistic outlook tends to encourage indulgence or abstinence?

Do you believe that having your livelihood dependent (more than most) on other's perceptions of your physical attractiveness would tend to encourage healthy or unhealthy behaviour?


Whether or not such things are more prevalent in Hollywood than elsewhere (and while I believe they are more prevalent there, I'm sure we can find other places where they are more prevalent), they are certainly more visible when they occur. Who cares about Joe Blogg's drug and wife-beating habits? The media certainly don't, and so we don't even know about them. But Harvey Weinstein? A huge target, literally.

Combine that with the oh so obvious delight humans take in throwing down and trampling their idols, and the conscious and unconscious mirroring of the behaviour of others which humans do, and the relative prevalence of such behaviour in Hollywood vs elsewhere becomes less relevant, when contrasted to the fact that when such behaviour occurs in Hollywood, it is broadcast direct to your living room, whereas when it occurs elsewhere, we don't even know.


TL;DR: It is more prevalent in Hollywood because of the social conditions there, but even so, what is more relevant is how visible it is, and how that visibility affects the rest of society.
Hi Pseudobabble
To your questions - generally speaking unethical etc. However the Buddha was powerfull but not unethical. Anathapindika was rich but not unethical. But these questions you raised do not apply exclusively to Hollywood. Power, excess, access is everywhere. If we think it is over there we might miss what is right here.

Is your belief that these vices (sexual abuse, drug abuse, paedophilia etc.) are more prevalent in Hollywood based on factual information?

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Re: What is it about Hollywood?

Post by phil » Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:09 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:41 am
phil wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:56 am
I looked up "virtue signaling" and found it a very sad notion. Nobody knows what cittas condition what appears to be virtuous behavior and I think it is pretty small-minded to decide that someone's intentions are not wholesome. Also as many of us know, wholesome behavior, including generosity towards/concern fir those in need arises from a sea of akusala and takes ages to get established in most cases. Good morality is good morality even if prompted. It's just not as strong.
Do you mean that the term should not be used? It would be difficult to make a convincing case for this, as it merely denotes a type of hypocrisy that has been subject to ethical condemnation in many times and cultures. The Buddha himself criticised and singled out monks who - by wearing the robes - implicitly lay claim to the holy life while being inwardly corrupt. We cannot be certain that a person's virtue is feigned, of course, but that same lack of certainty does not prevent us from criticising many other forms of perceived immorality. Indeed, if we cannot know the mind of the one accused of virtue-signalling, then likewise we cannot know the mind of the one who accuses him/her of it.

Virtue-signalling might be "good morality" in the sense that, even in the most flagrant examples where people merely parrot received virtues while doing nothing to embody or further them, they are at least publicising the meaning of that virtue. But in terms of the Dhamma, this would not be too skillful. Virtue-signalling has the intention of merely signalling virtue, and thereby misrepresenting the truth about us.
I see your point of course and agree. I think I just reacted to the term a an example of new words that are used to come down on people so readily, for example cultural appropriation and that sort of thing. I will just call hypocrites hypocrites I think, a personal preference..
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

chownah
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Re: What is it about Hollywood?

Post by chownah » Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:47 pm

Monks are require to wear robes to signal their virtue.....this is why if they are not virtuous they are force to disrobe.
chownah

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Kusala
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Re: What is it about Hollywood?

Post by Kusala » Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:10 am

Image

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"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "

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