The 'silent crisis' of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh

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L.N.
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Re: The 'silent crisis' of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh

Post by L.N. » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:01 am

binocular wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:49 pm
L.N. wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:28 pm
... stating that an innocent victim is not really innocent seems like a judgment call about others.
And since nobody claimed the above, your point is moot.
I thought somebody claimed the above in the following post:
binocular wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:55 pm
How can there be "innocent victims" when there is kamma??
binocular wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:55 pm
*sigh*
These discussions tend to be rather predictable. In these discussions, people, including many of those who nominally believe in rebirth or reincarnation, often defend those they perceive as victims, and automatically consider them innocent, allowing for no nuance and no detail, no other explanation or outlook, and accusing anyone who thinks in any way differently of victim blaming.
I can't speak for anyone else, but all of these comments appear to be making judgment calls about others. I have no intention to accuse you. Just responding to the words written.

To answer the original question, how can there be "innocent victims" when there is kamma? I would ask a different question: How can a person attain to an understanding of kamma (nominally or otherwise) and yet assert that slain children and raped women should not be regarded as innocent victims at the hands of their attackers?

How is it that a person who understands kamma would wish to highlight the theoretical past-life culpability of a child who has just been sliced in half and tossed in a river?
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Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


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DooDoot
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Re: The 'silent crisis' of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh

Post by DooDoot » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:45 am

L.N. wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:01 am
To answer the original question, how can there be "innocent victims" when there is kamma? I would ask a different question: How can a person attain to an understanding of kamma (nominally or otherwise) and yet assert that slain children and raped women should not be regarded as innocent victims at the hands of their attackers?
The Pali suttas say "kamma is intention". Since the recipients of violence never intended to engage in violence, it is not related to kamma.

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Re: The 'silent crisis' of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:22 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:45 am
L.N. wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:01 am
To answer the original question, how can there be "innocent victims" when there is kamma? I would ask a different question: How can a person attain to an understanding of kamma (nominally or otherwise) and yet assert that slain children and raped women should not be regarded as innocent victims at the hands of their attackers?
The Pali suttas say "kamma is intention". Since the recipients of violence never intended to engage in violence, it is not related to kamma.
Aren't the so called 'innocent recipients' experiencing their own ripening kamma? In Theravada, is there a kamma that is synonymous with prarabdha as taught in Vedanta?

binocular
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Re: The 'silent crisis' of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh

Post by binocular » Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:35 am

chownah wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:18 am
Perhaps you would be relieved of your sighing if you had presented more than just "How can there be "innocent victims" when there is kamma??".....you presented it without any nuance and no detail, no other explanation or outlook.....the result was inciteful or should I say "in*sigh*tful.
I asked a question, but instead of reading it as a question, several posters read it as a rhetorical question (ie. not a question at all) and took it from there.
Meanwhile, I still don't know how there can be innocent victims when there is kamma.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

binocular
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Re: The 'silent crisis' of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh

Post by binocular » Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:42 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:45 am
Since the recipients of violence never intended to engage in violence
How do you know that??
DooDoot wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:06 am
binocular wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:49 pm
I'm pointing at the distinction that just because someone is a victim, doesn't mean that they are innocent; they might be innocent, or not. But unless one can see other people's past lives and their kamma, there's no way of telling whether they are innocent or not.
Your ideas, which you seem to believe are "kamma", seem to render the law of kamma as something random, without lawfulness. without predictability, without efficacy & not offering protection. This is why AN 3.61 appears tp completely refutes your ideas. Based on your ideas, there are no causes to the Rohingya Crisis, knowable in the present, which can provide guidance for a solution to the crisis. Instead, the causes of the Rohingya Crisis are only known to one who can see other people's past lives.

Its like I have a bacterial infection, which you appear to say is caused by my actions in a past life. Therefore, because the bacterial infection is caused by my actions in a past life, it is pointless I visit a doctor to use an antibiotic medicine.
I'm not going to defend stances you merely imagine I hold.
L.N. wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:01 am
How is it that a person who understands kamma would wish to highlight the theoretical past-life culpability of a child who has just been sliced in half and tossed in a river?
If only you'd have some compassion for the victim(s) of your virtue-signalling and strawmanning ...
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Mr Man
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Re: The 'silent crisis' of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh

Post by Mr Man » Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:52 am

binocular wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:35 am
Meanwhile, I still don't know how there can be innocent victims when there is kamma.
Hi binocular
I don't think we need to think in terms of innocent (or the reverse guilty) in relation to kamma. Kamma is not a judge

I think it is also worth remembering (not that you have forgoten) is that the "'silent crisis' of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh" is real with real people suffering unnecessarily.

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Re: The 'silent crisis' of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh

Post by chownah » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:17 am

binocular wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:35 am
chownah wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:18 am
Perhaps you would be relieved of your sighing if you had presented more than just "How can there be "innocent victims" when there is kamma??".....you presented it without any nuance and no detail, no other explanation or outlook.....the result was inciteful or should I say "in*sigh*tful.
I asked a question, but instead of reading it as a question, several posters read it as a rhetorical question (ie. not a question at all) and took it from there.
Meanwhile, I still don't know how there can be innocent victims when there is kamma.
Post as ye will. I'm just trying to show why you get to the "sigh". It matters not to me if you ask questions without any nuance and no detail, no other explanation or outlook. The result will just often bring you a *sigh*.
chownah

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Re: The 'silent crisis' of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh

Post by DooDoot » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:25 am

binocular wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:42 am
How do you know that??
I was quoting suttas. The suttas say kamma is intention (AN 6.63). According the suttas, it appears a person murdered or raped due to the hateful intention of another person rather than due to the intention of the victim. This seems to be why Buddhism teaches people to give up hateful intentions & practise the moral precepts. I have never read in Buddhism that a person is raped or murdered due their own intentions (kamma) alone, as follows:
Through greed a covetous man kills breathing things... through hate a malevolent man kills breathing things... through ignorance a deluded man kills breathing things… https://suttacentral.net/en/an3.66
As for what I personally "know", I have personally not experienced any hardships in life that I cannot identify the exact causes. For example when I five years old, I was getting a thrill from riding my scooter through broken glass, until I cut open my foot in the glass and had to get stitches in the hospital. I think the cause of my cut foot was the broken glass & negligence rather than past life kamma. I cannot recall any hardship in my life where the causes of that hardship is a mystery to me. Similarly, I have posted many causes for why the Rohingya may be persecuted. I think to think that these millions of people all committed a certain past life kamma so to be born in a certain location and then they all get persecuted for living in that location (which is oil & gas deposits) seems rather far fetched & ridiculous; similar to saying all who died in Hiroshima, Nagasaki or 9/11 all did a certain past life kamma to be in those locations at those specific times. It starts to sound so absurd & ridiculous that it doesn't sound like the view of a Buddha (Wise One). It sounds like another 9/11 conspiracy theory, such remote control planes, controlled demolition, found passports, false flag to attack Iraq & Muslims, MIC, US made anthrax, Bush claiming to see the 1st plane on TV, high tech caves in Afghanistan, $B$ insurance claim, past life kamma. 9/11 happened due to past life kamma rather than due to Osama Bin Laden living in a cave in Afghanistan :roll:
binocular wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:42 am
I'm not going to defend stances you merely imagine I hold.
Did this mean to say: "...not able to defend stances...?"
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:22 am
Aren't the so called 'innocent recipients' experiencing their own ripening kamma? In Theravada, is there a kamma that is synonymous with prarabdha as taught in Vedanta?
Theosophical Society doctrine/dogma tends to view Buddhism in both a non-faith & interfaith manner. It has been quoted clearly on this thread:

1. The Pali suttas literally say there are "innocent" victims (SN 1.22; Iti 89; Dhp 137)

2. The Pali suttas define 'kamma' as 'intention' (AN 6.63).

3. The Pali suttas literally say attributing all fortune & misfortune to past kamma is a heretical doctrine that leaves a person defenseless or unprotected because they will not know what is skillful kamma that leads to protection (AN 3.61).

4. The Pali suttas literally say retribution or retaliation can occur due to present life past kamma. Example, Angulimala (MN 86) & Dhp 133.
Having approached the brahmans & contemplatives who hold that... 'Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past,' I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... "Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past?" Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of what was done in the past. A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... a harsh speaker... an idle chatterer... greedy... malicious... a holder of wrong views because of what was done in the past.' When one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative. This was my first righteous refutation of those brahmans & contemplatives who hold to such teachings, such views.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
I think the view of Binocular in this case probably falls into the above view (highlighted in red), which the Buddha refuted (highlighted in green).
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:22 am, edited 7 times in total.

Saengnapha
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Re: The 'silent crisis' of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:13 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:25 am
binocular wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:42 am
How do you know that??
I was quoting the suttas. The suttas say kamma is intention (AN 6.63). According the suttas, it appears a person murdered or raped due to the hateful intention of another person rather than due to the intention of the victim. This seems to be why Buddhism teaches people to give up hateful intentions & practise the moral precepts. I have never read in Buddhism that a person is raped or murdered due their own intentions (kamma) alone.

As for what I personally "know", I have personally not experienced any hardships in life that I cannot identify the exact causes. For example when I five years old, I was getting a thrill from riding my scooter through broken glass, until I cut open my foot in the glass and had to get stitches in the hospital. I think the cause of my cut foot was the broken glass & negligence rather than past life kamma. I cannot recall any hardship in my life where the causes of that hardship is a mystery to me. Similarly, I have posted many causes for why the Rohingya may be persecuted. I think to think that these millions of people all committed a certain past life kamma so to be born in a certain location and then they all get persecuted for living in that location (which is oil & gas deposits) seems rather far fetched & ridiculous; similar to saying all who died in Hiroshima, Nagasaki or 9/11 all did a certain past life kamma to be in those locations at those specific times. It starts to sound so absurd & ridiculous that it doesn't sound like the view of a Buddha (Wise One). It sounds like another 9/11 conspiracy theory, such remote control planes, controlled demolition, found passports, false flag to attack Iraq & Muslims, MIC, US made anthrax, Bush claiming to see the 1st plane on TV, high tech caves in Afghanistan, $B$ insurance claim, past life kamma. 9/11 happened due to past life kamma rather than due to Osama Bin Laden living in a cave in Afghanistan :roll:
binocular wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:42 am
I'm not going to defend stances you merely imagine I hold.
Do you mean to say: "I'm not able to defend stances... I hold?"
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:22 am
Aren't the so called 'innocent recipients' experiencing their own ripening kamma? In Theravada, is there a kamma that is synonymous with prarabdha as taught in Vedanta?
Theosophical Society doctrine/dogma tends to view Buddhism in both a non-faith & interfaith manner. It has been quoted clearly on this thread:

1. The Pali suttas literally say there are "innocent" victims (SN 1.22; Iti 89; Dhp 137)

2. The Pali suttas define 'kamma' as 'intention' (AN 6.63).

3. The Pali suttas literally say attributing all fortune & misfortune to past kamma is a heretical doctrine that leaves a person defensive or unprotected because they will not know what is skillful kamma that leads to protection (AN 3.61).

4. The Pali suttas literally say retribution or retaliation can occur due to present life past kamma. Example, Angulimala (MN 56) & Dhp 133.
Having approached the brahmans & contemplatives who hold that... 'Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past,' I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... "Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past?" Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of what was done in the past. A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... a harsh speaker... an idle chatterer... greedy... malicious... a holder of wrong views because of what was done in the past.' When one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative. This was my first righteous refutation of those brahmans & contemplatives who hold to such teachings, such views.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
I think it appears quite plain & obvious the views of Binocular on this thread fall into the above view (highlighted in red), which the Lord Buddha refuted (highlighted in greed).
Thank you, Doo Doot. It's quite clear what you wrote.
Isn't the Angulimala sutta MN 86?

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Re: The 'silent crisis' of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh

Post by DooDoot » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:16 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:13 am
Isn't the Angulimala sutta MN 86?
Yes. Thank you, also.

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Re: The 'silent crisis' of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh

Post by L.N. » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:34 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:45 am
The Pali suttas say "kamma is intention". Since the recipients of violence never intended to engage in violence, it is not related to kamma.
More precisely, kamma is volitional action. I agree it is not intended to explain the actions of others toward oneself, but rather the volitional actions which one performs when faced with circumstances. The fruits of kamma may ripen in other circumstances within oneself. For example, the Buddha's instructions to Angulimala when others struck him with stones was, "bear with it." My reading is that it is not kamma that other people struck Angulimala with stones. Rather, the fruit of kamma was was that his head was bleeding, his bowl was broken, etc. The people who struck him exercised the kamma of harming an innocent victim. Angulimala, a former mass killer, was, in the instance of being stoned, an innocent victim of stoning, kamma notwithstanding. https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn ... .than.html
'Sister since I was born with the noble birth, I have never purposely deprived a living being of life. By this truth may you and the infant be safe!'"
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el312.html
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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L.N.
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Re: The 'silent crisis' of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh

Post by L.N. » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:37 pm

binocular wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:42 am
L.N. wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:01 am
How is it that a person who understands kamma would wish to highlight the theoretical past-life culpability of a child who has just been sliced in half and tossed in a river?
If only you'd have some compassion for the victim(s) of your virtue-signalling and strawmanning ...
Please do not personalize the conversation. This topic is not about me. This topic is not about you. I do not wish to respond to further personal comments from you, and I hope there will be no more. Please focus on what is written, not the characteristics of the people writing. Let us assume everyone here has good intentions until they clearly demonstrate otherwise.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: The 'silent crisis' of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:55 pm

'It would be good if I too died': Rape as weapon of war against Rohingya

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/11/17/asia/ ... index.html
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br

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binocular
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Re: The 'silent crisis' of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh

Post by binocular » Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:54 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:25 am
I was quoting suttas. The suttas say kamma is intention (AN 6.63). According the suttas, it appears a person murdered or raped due to the hateful intention of another person rather than due to the intention of the victim. This seems to be why Buddhism teaches people to give up hateful intentions & practise the moral precepts. I have never read in Buddhism that a person is raped or murdered due their own intentions (kamma) alone, as follows:
Neither have I, but you're clearly a proponent of the one-life doctrine, not of rebirth.
I think to think that these millions of people all committed a certain past life kamma so to be born in a certain location and then they all get persecuted for living in that location (which is oil & gas deposits) seems rather far fetched & ridiculous; similar to saying all who died in Hiroshima, Nagasaki or 9/11 all did a certain past life kamma to be in those locations at those specific times. It starts to sound so absurd & ridiculous that it doesn't sound like the view of a Buddha (Wise One)
If in one round, Jones kills Smith, and the next time around, Smith wants to retaliate and kill Jones, you think that's possibly the fruits of kamma. But if a bus of schoolchildren is blown up by terrorists, that somehow isn't ...

Again:
binocular wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:49 pm
It is my understanding that we cannot automatically rule out the possibility that at least some of the Rohingya are experiencing the fruits of their past actions.
/.../
I'm pointing at the distinction that just because someone is a victim, doesn't mean that they are innocent; they might be innocent, or not. But unless one can see other people's past lives and their kamma, there's no way of telling whether they are innocent or not.
binocular wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:42 am
I'm not going to defend stances you merely imagine I hold.
Did this mean to say: "...not able to defend stances...?"
I said what I meant.
:rolleye:
3. The Pali suttas literally say attributing all fortune & misfortune to past kamma is a heretical doctrine that leaves a person defenseless or unprotected because they will not know what is skillful kamma that leads to protection (AN 3.61).
But you are the one doing such attribution, by summarily declaring _all_ the victims in a crime innocent, as if it were impossible that when a 100 people get killed, some of them could be experiencing the fruits of their past kamma..

If in one round, Jones kills Smith, and the next time around, Smith wants to retaliate and kill Jones, you think that's possibly the fruits of kamma. But if a bus of schoolchildren is blown up by terrorists, that somehow isn't ...
I think the view of Binocular in this case probably falls into the above view (highlighted in red), which the Buddha refuted (highlighted in green).
You're not reading what I'm saying.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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L.N.
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Re: The 'silent crisis' of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh

Post by L.N. » Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:20 pm

binocular wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:54 pm
I'm pointing at the distinction that just because someone is a victim, doesn't mean that they are innocent; they might be innocent, or not. But unless one can see other people's past lives and their kamma, there's no way of telling whether they are innocent or not.
In the context of the Rohingya crisis, mass rape, and slaughter of children, this comment seems very much out of place, and it comes across as an excuse for Buddhists to rape and slaughter Muslims (by virtue of their purported past-life culpability which renders them deserving of their fate).

This all appears to be part of an ongoing effort by some here at DW to disparage Islam and its offshoots, even to the point of justifying the Rohingya tragedy in terms of the Buddhist teaching of kamma. Another example of a recent topic disparaging Islam: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=30263

Such comments can be offensive to others and can harm the perception of Buddhism. For example, see this. I wish we would stop creating posts on DW which could be offensive to those of other faiths.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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