Stand Against Suffering

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
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Re: Stand Against Suffering

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:50 am

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:Rather than this talk about mindstates, it would be more interesting to see some serious application of the Dhamma
:?

What application of the Dhamma is there other than in cetana?

Your desire to cleave the two apart belies what the Buddha taught of the Dhamma, and it belies your earlier quotes about "the wholesome" and "the unwholesome".

As I stepped out, my view of the world comes from my view of the Dhamma. I do not see any benefit in cleaving the two.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Stand Against Suffering

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:53 am

Greetings Pink_Trike,
Really? That's all you see?
I see the origination of dukkha, I see its causes, and I see a letter that serves only to inflame those causes in its target audience rather than doing what Buddhist teachers would traditionally have done in the past, which is, to help people transcend those causes of dukkha.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Stand Against Suffering

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:12 am

retrofuturist wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Rather than this talk about mindstates, it would be more interesting to see some serious application of the Dhamma

What application of the Dhamma is there other than in cetana?
I gave some sutta quotes above that I think are relevant.

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Re: Stand Against Suffering

Post by pink_trike » Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:20 am

retrofuturist wrote:
... my view of the world comes from my view of the Dhamma.
You seem to spend a lot of time holding forth about how disgruntled leftists / "social justice warriors" (ridiculing and belittling terms) are a screwed up menace to society who have it all wrong (which implies that you have it all right). What part of your view of Dhamma does this ongoing politicizing, political parsing, and diminishing of others flow from? How is questioning the motives of these highly trained, compassionate, experienced teachers, and divisively labeling them as "disgruntled leftists" with petty adhammic grievances, reflective of your view of dhamma? How is this skillful, according to your view of dhamma? How is it respectful of their commitment (in some cases longer than you've been alive) to teaching people about the cessation of suffering?
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

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Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

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Re: Stand Against Suffering

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:20 am

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:I gave some sutta quotes above that I think are relevant.
Good suttas they are too...

The first supports fair and reasonable distribution of income and wealth, divorced of state-intervention.
The second supports border protection, law and order and combating terrorism.
The thirds supports reduction in excessive taxes and regulations, as well as investments in infrastructure.

...all of which are Trump policies which are being resisted in the name of resistance!

:rofl:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Stand Against Suffering

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:23 am

Greetings Pink_Trike,
pink_trike wrote:You seem to spend a lot of time holding forth about how disgruntled leftists / "social justice warriors" (ridiculing and belittling terms) are a screwed up menace to society who have it all wrong (which implies that you have it all right). What part of your view of Dhamma does this ongoing politicizing, political parsing, and diminishing of others flow from? How is questioning the motives of these highly trained, compassionate, experienced teachers, and divisively labeling them as "disgruntled leftists" with petty adhammic grievances, reflective of your view of dhamma? How is this skillful, according to your view of dhamma? How is it respectful of their commitment (in some cases longer than you've been alive) to teaching people about the cessation of suffering?
DN 15 wrote:It's because of not understanding and not penetrating this Dhamma that this generation is like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string, like matted rushes and reeds, and does not go beyond transmigration, beyond the planes of deprivation, woe, and bad destinations.
Generations were this way 2600 years ago as well... the difference is, that the Buddha tried to teach them the way out of their self-inflicted suffering. If people prioritise political ideologies over the Dhamma, then that is their choice - it is not for me to stop them. However, I need not be led by them, nor silenced for disagreeing with their chosen path and daring to point out alternatives that exist other than further entanglement...

All the best.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Stand Against Suffering

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:31 am

retrofuturist wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:I gave some sutta quotes above that I think are relevant.
Good suttas they are too...

The first supports fair and reasonable distribution of income and wealth, divorced of state-intervention.
The second supports border protection, law and order.
The thirds supports reduction in excessive taxes and regulations.

...all of which are Trump policies which are being resisted in the name of resistance!

:rofl:
I guess everyone has their own interpretation... The third is not just about reducing excessive taxes:
Now there is one method to adopt to put a thorough end to this disorder. Whosoever there be in the king’s realm who devote themselves to keeping cattle and the farm, to them let his majesty the king give food and seed-corn. Whosoever there be in the king’s realm who devote themselves to trade, to them let his majesty the king give capital. Whosoever there be in the king’s realm who devote themselves to government service, to them let his majesty the king give wages and food.
https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f ... 22#p421311
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Re: Stand Against Suffering

Post by pink_trike » Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:33 am

retrofuturist wrote:

If people prioritise political ideologies over the Dhamma, then that is their choice - it is not for me to stop them.
My point was that it is _you_ that are doing this ... it is you who politicize and politically parse ... to the point of apparently needing to diminish ("disgruntled leftists" is politicizing and provoking) and question the motives of quite a number of valued effective teachers. And my question is what part of your view of dhamma supports doing this?
Last edited by pink_trike on Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

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Re: Stand Against Suffering

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:36 am

Greetings Pink_Trike,
pink_trike wrote:My point was that it is _you_ that are doing this ... it is you who politicize and politically parse ... to the point of apparently needing to diminish and question the motives of quite a number of valued effective teachers.
I'm not questioning their motives at all. Moral relativism has plagued Buddhism ever since it sprung forth under the rationalisation of akusala cetana as "skilful means". I have no doubt they believe in what they're saying. I do question how "effective" it is for teachers to encourage people to react in such a way, in instances where the world does not pander to their preferences... I find that very difficult to reconcile with the Buddha's teaching.
pink_trike wrote:And my question is what part of your view of dhamma supports doing this?
The part that says the moral quality of action is intrinsically embedded within the action itself, not in moral relativism.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Stand Against Suffering

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:01 am

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:The third is not just about reducing excessive taxes and regulations:
Now there is one method to adopt to put a thorough end to this disorder. Whosoever there be in the king’s realm who devote themselves to keeping cattle and the farm, to them let his majesty the king give food and seed-corn. Whosoever there be in the king’s realm who devote themselves to trade, to them let his majesty the king give capital. Whosoever there be in the king’s realm who devote themselves to government service, to them let his majesty the king give wages and food.
https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f ... 22#p421311
Correct... it also supports Trump's infrastructure plans as well!

:twothumbsup:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Stand Against Suffering

Post by pink_trike » Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:15 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Pink_Trike,
pink_trike wrote:My point was that it is _you_ that are doing this ... it is you who politicize and politically parse ... to the point of apparently needing to diminish and question the motives of quite a number of valued effective teachers.
I'm not questioning their motives at all. Moral relativism has plagued Buddhism ever since it sprung form under the rationalisation of cetana as "skilful means". I have no doubt they believe in what they're saying.
pink_trike wrote:And my question is what part of your view of dhamma supports doing this?
The part that says the moral quality of action is intrinsically embedded within the action itself, not in moral relativism.

Metta,
Paul. :)
You're going even further now (beyond characterizing their motives as political and beyond divisively labeling them with a belittling political term) by suggesting that the quality of their actions is actually immoral (because as you know, moral absolutism doesn't allow for gradations of morality) ... and by suggesting that what they perceive as an appropriate compassionate response is actually an immoral response.

I find it interesting that these pretty astounding suggestions (which translate into a charge that it is themselves that are immoral) just happen to match your well woven, energized, highly politicized, anti-progressive, anti-left worldview . :smile:

Even if I agreed with your objection to this document (I don't) and if I agreed with your political worldview (I don't) I would still conclude that your response to it ... politicizing ... is exactly what you're objecting to.
Last edited by pink_trike on Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

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Re: Stand Against Suffering

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:22 am

Greetings Pink_Trike,
pink_trike wrote:I find it interesting that these pretty astounding suggestions (which translate into a charge that it is themselves that are immoral) just happen to match your well woven, energized, highly politicized, anti-progressive, anti-left worldview . :smile:
I started with the Dhamma view as taught by the Buddha, and then reasonably expected any other view to be aligned with it, and subordinate to it. The way that's shaken out is the way that's shaken out. You may call it "politicizing", but I see making politics subordinate to the Buddhadhamma as a matter of "de-politicizing". I disagree with identity politics for example, because of its moral relativism and inherent conflict with the Buddha's teachings on the illusion of identity, and the passions that arise due to identity view. You may not like the results of my analysis, and may find they run counter to your politics, but that's OK.

If other people prioritise and arrange their various perspectives, ideologies and world-views based on other criteria, that's for them to decide. I respect their right to do so and to explain their truth as it appears to them. I can only explain it as it appears to me, and allow others to do likewise... such is conversation.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Check this thread from Suttacentral

Post by Derek » Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:30 am

R1111 wrote:Article starts with naming 13 Leading Buddhist teachers, i think this is wrong, they are not even in the top 100 probably. These are lay people mostly and i dont think Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi teaches meditation or meditates much from what i heard. Had they not included Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi in the list the claim would have been utterly rediculous.
Possibly they couldn't get more monks to participate in an open letter because monks aren't supposed to teach without an explicit invitation from their audience.

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Re: Check this thread from Suttacentral

Post by perkele » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:16 am

Derek wrote:
R1111 wrote:Article starts with naming 13 Leading Buddhist teachers, i think this is wrong, they are not even in the top 100 probably. These are lay people mostly and i dont think Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi teaches meditation or meditates much from what i heard. Had they not included Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi in the list the claim would have been utterly rediculous.
Possibly they couldn't get more monks to participate in an open letter because monks aren't supposed to teach without an explicit invitation from their audience.
And really there is no hint of a "teaching", or even a position and clear statement what they want or oppose or support, in this piece anyway. :thinking: (And yes, if there was, it would be inapproprate for monks, to meddle in worldly political affairs.)

About the "teaching not allowed without explicit invitation" I am not so sure. I certainly have read and/or heard something to that extent, but not sure how "binding" and absolute that is. Do you happen to know where to point to in the Vinaya about this, perchance? Would be interested to know about it more clearly.

:anjali:

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Re: Check this thread from Suttacentral

Post by dhamma follower » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:21 am

R1111 wrote:Article starts with naming 13 Leading Buddhist teachers, i think this is wrong, they are not even in the top 100 probably. These are lay people mostly and i dont think Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi teaches meditation or meditates much from what i heard. Had they not included Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi in the list the claim would have been utterly rediculous. So far ive tried to read the article a couple times but repeatedly couldnt get past this.
[/quote]

My comment is off topic, but I just wonder since when a Dhamma Teacher has become less of a Buddhist Teacher than a Meditation Teacher?

Whether agreeing or disagreeing with Bikkhu Body's political point of view, or even his understanding of certain points of the Teachings, I always thought there was a widespread consensus on his enormous contribution to the propagation of the Dhamma, his knowledge of the texts, and therefore his being a respectable Buddhist Teacher.

Best regards,

D.F

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Re: Stand Against Suffering

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:39 am

Bhikkhu Bodhi is very modest about his meditation, but he certainly does meditate, and in some of his on-line talks discusses what he teaches.

See, for example:

Bhikkhu Bodhi: Working with Pain
https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=8232
This is a very interesting talk. Bhikkhu Bodhi discusses the constant pain problems he has had since the 1970s, and some of the techniques he has used to make it possible to have a meditation practice in the face of these problems.

http://www.audiodharma.org/teacher/19/
Of course, as dhamma follower says, this is all rather off topic, since meditation is just one aspect of Dhamma Practice.

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Re: Stand Against Suffering

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:40 am

Greetings,

I agree. One monk needn't be everything to everyone.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Stand Against Suffering

Post by perkele » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:53 am

retrofuturist wrote:After eight years of moral relativism under Barack Obama they seem to be suffering due to having trouble accepting a president who ascribes to moral absolutism once more...
"Ascribes to moral absolutism once more" - does he? I am really surprised by your apparent perception of Donald Trump.
He surely has lied often and blatantly enough to erode any possibility to see him as some sort of moral paragon. :thinking:

To be sure, I don't even know what policies by the Trump administration these "stand against suffering" people are actually protesting against (as they do probably neither, or at least they carefully avoid at all costs making it clear :thinking: ), and I have other things more important on my mind usually than American politics. But there have certainly been enough dick moves he pulled off which I would call immoral, like this one, or his investigations into voting fraud, but recounting only in those districts where Democrats won, so many small but annoying obvious lies, etc. And as far as I have read, in the short time of his office term he has already ordered more droning deaths than Barack Obama in I don't know how long a time, which is despicable enough. Surely, to call him one "who ascribes to moral absolutism once more" really makes me wonder, along with Mike:
mikenz66 wrote:Perhaps it is possible to argue that Trump is such a wheel-turning monarch, and his actions are carefully designed to bring peace to the land/world. I personally doubt it, but some people here have quite different opinions from me on all sorts of matters...
I am not informed enough about the political games in that sphere to make an informed judgment about your positioning "Trump's moral absolutism" against "Barack Obama's moral relativism", but I am very puzzled about it, because I generally mostly had the perception of Barack Obama as a "man of integrity" and Donald Trump as an emotionally unstable and reckless "baby in the body of a 70 year old". I have not too much information to support these perceptions, though.

I have not seen much here to seriously challenge these uninformed (and for sure heavily media-influenced) perceptions, and the stuff going on in the "news and current events" forum on the topic of Trump and his policies and adversaries, and the "regressive left" and libertarian cry-babies etc. etc. has been mostly simply distasteful for me. (I consider myself as politically quite neutral, but the general tone of mockery and ridicule was distasteful.)

I agree with Mike here:
mikenz66 wrote:Not that I have any objection to people discussing politics, but I'm not sure what the point is of discussing it here unless the tagline is taken seriously:
The best place for the discussion of current events and politics. A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
There is the appearance of a tenor of "schadenfreude" from the side of Trump supporters or right-wingers or conservatives or ... whatever against those "lib-tards", that mostly you, retro seem to propagate by use of silly facetious memes (much of which were certainly somehow "justified", but still, often, as I see it, in a bad spirit) - just as an example the :cry: :cry: :cry: smilies that you put here in the post above, which would have been unnecessary (okay, in this case, it was really appropriate, but there have been other occasions where I perceive a certain "triumphalism" over those stupid libtards and regressive leftists etc. - it is just this general tone, although in this instance, I have to agree with the usage of mocking smileys), or these tiringly-often repeated memes of this kind :thinking: - as if the whole world was caught up in those silly "SJW vs. conservative-tards" dynamics as they are played out in this forum here constantly.

On the other hand I see this "stand against suffering" for example as so void substance as the Phena Sutta illustrates.

I am not informed enough to follow all the intrigues and political goings-on, whatever was up with Hillary Clinton's emails, or who leaked what to whom, or now something happening with some woman named "Rice" I think, and have not enough interest in that. I only perceive the general atmosphere around these topics as mostly disturbing, and believe they are actually for the most part ill-placed on a Dhamma discussion forum. I had the feeling from the beginning that the "News, Current Events and politics" forum was a bad idea, in that it would encourage more creation of this kind of topics than before and I think I was right about that, but am now not so sure about it. Certainly, these topics need a proper place when brought up (although the Lounge would have always fit the bill). But for the most part I simply don't understand why they are brought up. Many things I find mildly interesting, mainly in what kinds of views they are bringing to the surface among people from a variety of cultural and geographical backgrounds. But the cool story about Vault 7 leaks etc. or Hillary Clinton emails or whatever for example does not really help much in understanding the Dhamma. Sure, there are many examples of lying, intrigues, moral shadiness to be found as counterexamples to good morality from a Buddhist standpoint. Maybe that is the best purpose they can serve. But the setup seems mostly to be too much in a way intent on, or with an agenda for agitation, mockery, etc. and divisiveness.

I am sure it would be possible to put the "News and current events and politics" forum to a better use and breach topics in a way that is more engaging, morally inspiring, whatever way. More neutral, less intent on mockery and schadenfreude.

As Mike said, and I agree:
mikenz66 wrote:You seem to put a lot of effort into flogging some progressive straw men, which I don't find particularly convincing.


To be sure, although I perceive the arguments in this debate (as well as several others before) here to be to a good extent on your side, retro, (in that this "stand against suffering" is as void as a glob of foam, obviously) I really cannot wrap my head around your apparent perception of Donald Trump as a great saviour, and the sort of triumphalism that you seem to display continually. I don't think it is setting a good tone for discussing sociopolitical matters in a way "to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics".

retrofuturist wrote:What application of the Dhamma is there other than in cetana?

I don't know much about Trump's cetana. And I am pretty sure you actually do neither. And about how is politics will play out (for himself, for 'murica, for others, in the short-term and in the long-term), I suppose time will tell...

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:I gave some sutta quotes above that I think are relevant.

Good suttas they are too...

The first supports fair and reasonable distribution of income and wealth, divorced of state-intervention.
The second supports border protection, law and order and combating terrorism.
The thirds supports reduction in excessive taxes and regulations, as well as investments in infrastructure.

...all of which are Trump policies which are being resisted in the name of resistance!

retrofuturist wrote:Correct... it also supports Trump's infrastructure plans as well!

Time will tell... (and I am uninformed, and skeptical about Trump's good cetana...)

Now after writing and hesitating long enough that the discussion has progressed maybe to something else already. I am not sure at all about anything political and not too interested overall. But I have this opinion: I think for the sake of possibly allowing for more dispassionate and possibly dhammically educating discussion on socio-political matters, it would be good to step back a bit from "Trump triumphalism" which seems to dominate this forum much. (And of course the same goes for political affiliations in the opposite direction, which have been overrepresented here formerly, IMO. I think it would be optimal for the leaders of this forum to remain politically neutral as much as possible, as they do set the general tone due to their (generally deserved) authority. Just IMO, and a bit tired without thinking deeply and clearly. Of course there shouldn't be a total dictate for admins and mods to STFU about politics, but maybe to STFU a bit more, tone it down, be neutral... hmm...)

Sorry for the lenghty post. I actually wanted to disengage from this, yet not without expressing my grievances. :soap:

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Re: Stand Against Suffering

Post by perkele » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:57 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

I agree. One monk needn't be everything to everyone.

Metta,
Paul. :)
I agree. And wiser in general probably not to try to be that (and especially a politician, as a monk).

:sage:

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Re: Stand Against Suffering

Post by santa100 » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:26 am

Stand-against-suffering wrote:Thirteen leading Buddhist teachers, joined by more than 100 additional signatories,...
As long as a society protects the vulnerable among them, they can be expected to prosper and not decline.

—The Buddha, in the Mahaparinirvana Sutta
Hmm...Ok, before even getting into the content, first thing first, let's start with credential and truthful information. "Leading Buddhist teachers" should know more than everyone else about keeping the 4th precept and the importance of providing accurate and authentic Dhamma information/reference. And yet they broke it right off the bat (whether intentionally or unintentionally). Not sure what that hybrid phrase "Mahaparinirvana Sutta" means. There's the MahaParinibbana Sutta and its MahaParinirvana Sutra equivalent. Neither contain the quote they cited above. I don't care about those lay teachers but for Ven. Bodhi, yes, Ven. Bodhi to be among them is quite a shock. He's normally very meticulous in enforcing the truthfulness of Dhamma information and propagation and yet in this case, he let such a huge and obvious false reference slip right through. What would people think when seeing 13 "leading Buddhist teachers" made a middle-school-Buddhism-level mistake right on the first paragraph of their paper! And worse, what'd folks from other religions think about the competence of these leading Buddhist teachers!

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