retrofuturist wrote:After eight years of moral relativism under Barack Obama they seem to be suffering due to having trouble accepting a president who ascribes to moral absolutism once more...
"Ascribes to moral absolutism once more" - does he? I am really surprised by your apparent perception of Donald Trump.
He surely has lied often and blatantly enough to erode any possibility to see him as some sort of moral paragon.
To be sure, I don't even know what policies by the Trump administration these "stand against suffering" people are actually protesting against (as they do probably neither, or at least they carefully avoid at all costs making it clear
), and I have other things more important on my mind usually than American politics. But there have certainly been enough dick moves he pulled off which I would call immoral, like this one
, or his investigations into voting fraud, but recounting only in those districts where Democrats won, so many small but annoying obvious lies, etc. And as far as I have read, in the short time of his office term he has already ordered more droning deaths
than Barack Obama in I don't know how long a time, which is despicable enough. Surely, to call him one "who ascribes to moral absolutism once more" really makes me wonder, along with Mike:
mikenz66 wrote:Perhaps it is possible to argue that Trump is such a wheel-turning monarch, and his actions are carefully designed to bring peace to the land/world. I personally doubt it, but some people here have quite different opinions from me on all sorts of matters...
I am not informed enough about the political games in that sphere to make an informed judgment about your positioning "Trump's moral absolutism" against "Barack Obama's moral relativism", but I am very puzzled about it, because I generally mostly had the perception of Barack Obama as a "man of integrity" and Donald Trump as an emotionally unstable and reckless "baby in the body of a 70 year old". I have not too much information to support these perceptions, though.
I have not seen much here to seriously challenge these uninformed (and for sure heavily media-influenced) perceptions, and the stuff going on in the "news and current events" forum on the topic of Trump and his policies and adversaries, and the "regressive left" and libertarian cry-babies etc. etc. has been mostly simply distasteful for me. (I consider myself as politically quite neutral, but the general tone of mockery and ridicule was distasteful.)
I agree with Mike here:
Not that I have any objection to people discussing politics, but I'm not sure what the point is of discussing it here unless the tagline is taken seriously:
The best place for the discussion of current events and politics. A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
There is the appearance of a tenor of "schadenfreude" from the side of Trump supporters or right-wingers or conservatives or ... whatever against those "lib-tards", that mostly you, retro seem to propagate by use of silly facetious memes (much of which were certainly somehow "justified", but still, often, as I see it, in a bad spirit) - just as an example the
smilies that you put here in the post above, which would have been unnecessary (okay, in this case, it was really appropriate, but there have been other occasions where I perceive a certain "triumphalism" over those stupid libtards and regressive leftists etc. - it is just this general tone, although in this instance, I have to agree with the usage of mocking smileys), or these tiringly-often repeated memes of this kind - as if the whole world was caught up in those silly "SJW vs. conservative-tards" dynamics as they are played out in this forum here constantly.
On the other hand I see this "stand against suffering" for example as so void substance as the Phena Sutta illustrates.
I am not informed enough to follow all the intrigues and political goings-on, whatever was up with Hillary Clinton's emails, or who leaked what to whom, or now something happening with some woman named "Rice" I think, and have not enough interest in that. I only perceive the general atmosphere around these topics as mostly disturbing, and believe they are actually for the most part ill-placed on a Dhamma discussion forum. I had the feeling from the beginning that the "News, Current Events and politics" forum was a bad idea, in that it would encourage more creation of this kind of topics than before and I think I was right about that, but am now not so sure about it. Certainly, these topics need a proper place when brought up (although the Lounge would have always fit the bill). But for the most part I simply don't understand why they are brought up. Many things I find mildly interesting, mainly in what kinds of views they are bringing to the surface among people from a variety of cultural and geographical backgrounds. But the cool story about Vault 7 leaks etc. or Hillary Clinton emails or whatever for example does not really help much in understanding the Dhamma. Sure, there are many examples of lying, intrigues, moral shadiness to be found as counterexamples to good morality from a Buddhist standpoint. Maybe that is the best purpose they can serve. But the setup seems mostly to be too much in a way intent on, or with an agenda for agitation, mockery, etc. and divisiveness.
I am sure it would be possible to put the "News and current events and politics" forum to a better use and breach topics in a way that is more engaging, morally inspiring, whatever way. More neutral, less intent on mockery and schadenfreude.
As Mike said, and I agree:
mikenz66 wrote:You seem to put a lot of effort into flogging some progressive straw men, which I don't find particularly convincing.
To be sure, although I perceive the arguments in this debate (as well as several others before) here to be to a good extent on your side, retro, (in that this "stand against suffering" is as void as a glob of foam, obviously) I really cannot wrap my head around your apparent perception of Donald Trump as a great saviour, and the sort of triumphalism that you seem to display continually. I don't think it is setting a good tone for discussing sociopolitical matters in a way "to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics".
retrofuturist wrote:What application of the Dhamma is there other than in cetana?
I don't know much about Trump's cetana. And I am pretty sure you actually do neither. And about how is politics will play out (for himself, for 'murica, for others, in the short-term and in the long-term), I suppose time will tell...
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:I gave some sutta quotes above that I think are relevant.
Good suttas they are too...
The first supports fair and reasonable distribution of income and wealth, divorced of state-intervention.
The second supports border protection, law and order and combating terrorism.
The thirds supports reduction in excessive taxes and regulations, as well as investments in infrastructure.
...all of which are Trump policies which are being resisted in the name of resistance!
retrofuturist wrote:Correct... it also supports Trump's infrastructure plans as well!
Time will tell... (and I am uninformed, and skeptical about Trump's good cetana...)
Now after writing and hesitating long enough that the discussion has progressed maybe to something else already. I am not sure at all about anything political and not too interested overall. But I have this opinion: I think for the sake of possibly allowing for more dispassionate and possibly dhammically educating discussion on socio-political matters, it would be good to step back a bit from "Trump triumphalism" which seems to dominate this forum much. (And of course the same goes for political affiliations in the opposite direction, which have been overrepresented here formerly, IMO. I think it would be optimal for the leaders of this forum to remain politically neutral as much as possible, as they do set the general tone due to their (generally deserved) authority. Just IMO, and a bit tired without thinking deeply and clearly. Of course there shouldn't be a total dictate for admins and mods to STFU about politics, but maybe to STFU a bit more, tone it down, be neutral... hmm...)
Sorry for the lenghty post. I actually wanted to disengage from this, yet not without expressing my grievances.