POTUS 2017

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SDC
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Re: POTUS 2017

Post by SDC » Fri Aug 25, 2017 12:20 pm

Buddha Vacana wrote:
chownah wrote:
SDC wrote:
From what I gathered it was more of the grass-roots anti-Hillary propaganda on social media that did it for Trump. It was a serious effort.
Yeah, grass roots! Check out Cambridge Analytica. Bannon was one of the big wigs there before he moved to the trump team. It is a "big data" company. From their website....what you see first when it comes up:
Data drives all we do.

Cambridge Analytica uses data to change audience behavior. Visit our Commercial or Political divisions to see how we can help you.
The boys (and girls I guess) at cambridge analytica can whip up a grass roots campaign if you've got the money. But....you say....it seemed like a genuine grass roots campaign. Well of course....those guys (and gals I guess) are professionals.

chownah
:goodpost:

:tongue:
:roll:

Professional or not, my point was that this anti-Hillary aspect was conducted on the grass roots level of social media and not through traditional mainstream.

chownah
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Re: POTUS 2017

Post by chownah » Fri Aug 25, 2017 12:58 pm

SDC wrote:

Professional or not, my point was that this anti-Hillary aspect was conducted on the grass roots level of social media and not through traditional mainstream.
I'm not sure what you mean by "conducted on the grass roots level". If you mean that alot of people made alot of posts (tweets?) during the process then you are correct. If you mean that it was ordinary people talking to each other and finding similarities which was the impetus for them to put forward a commonly held message (how traditional "grass roots" movements are supposed to start) then I think you are wrong. There is ample evidence that various right wing elements used fake posts and misinformation to start a conversation leading people to their ideological beliefs and then used the data from who responded and how they responded to create new fake post and misinformation to keep the ball rolling their way. For me this means that the media was being "conducted" by data mining, manipulative propogandists....for me this is not "grass roots"....it is crass manipulative propogandism like the world has not seen until now with the rise of mindless mass communicators.
I'm not saying that liberals are innocent of these things...I think they might have done some of the same things but I don't know. They have probably learned a few things from this election which in my view increases the likelihood that they will engage in these thing (or engage in them more) in the future.

People seem to be really ignorant of how this works and how it is a real thing and not just some cartoon theoretic. There are alot of intellectually lazy people in the world (estimates rage from 25% to 50% of the population) and data miners equipped with huge data banks, internet media enabled computers, and AI have the ability to manipulate the intellectually lazy better than any despot of the past has been able to do. Remember how that guy in germany got the germans to either support him or at least not oppose him?.....it was propoganda of course....his techniques were child's play compared to what is going now.....and it will only get better(worse). Remember the book 1984 with its ministry of truth?
chownah

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SDC
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Re: POTUS 2017

Post by SDC » Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:21 pm

chownah wrote:
SDC wrote:

Professional or not, my point was that this anti-Hillary aspect was conducted on the grass roots level of social media and not through traditional mainstream.
I'm not sure what you mean by "conducted on the grass roots level". If you mean that alot of people made alot of posts (tweets?) during the process then you are correct. If you mean that it was ordinary people talking to each other and finding similarities which was the impetus for them to put forward a commonly held message (how traditional "grass roots" movements are supposed to start) then I think you are wrong. There is ample evidence that various right wing elements used fake posts and misinformation to start a conversation leading people to their ideological beliefs and then used the data from who responded and how they responded to create new fake post and misinformation to keep the ball rolling their way. For me this means that the media was being "conducted" by data mining, manipulative propogandists....for me this is not "grass roots"....it is crass manipulative propogandism like the world has not seen until now with the rise of mindless mass communicators.
I'm not saying that liberals are innocent of these things...I think they might have done some of the same things but I don't know. They have probably learned a few things from this election which in my view increases the likelihood that they will engage in these thing (or engage in them more) in the future.

People seem to be really ignorant of how this works and how it is a real thing and not just some cartoon theoretic. There are alot of intellectually lazy people in the world (estimates rage from 25% to 50% of the population) and data miners equipped with huge data banks, internet media enabled computers, and AI have the ability to manipulate the intellectually lazy better than any despot of the past has been able to do. Remember how that guy in germany got the germans to either support him or at least not oppose him?.....it was propoganda of course....his techniques were child's play compared to what is going now.....and it will only get better(worse). Remember the book 1984 with its ministry of truth?
chownah
Yes, I was referring to ordinary people reposting and re-tweeting. It happened there to the degree that has never been seen before. I'm not going to dispute the origins of the information (no doubt the intent was nefarious in many cases) but the sheer magnitude of the proliferation.

Are you familiar with Instagram? If you were you would know the value of re-posted and re-edited memes in terms of keeping the viewer engaged. What came from the right was heavy and very effective. My point is that, yeah Russia or Cambridge or whoever, the information engaged the viewer and the viewer ran with it, on that level, and the mainstream media looked like a fools trying to compete.

binocular
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Re: POTUS 2017

Post by binocular » Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:46 pm

The film Wag the Dog comes to mind ...

Anyone seen it?

Buddha Vacana
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Re: POTUS 2017

Post by Buddha Vacana » Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:25 am

Pardoning Arpaio makes no ethical nor logical sense, except to pander to Trump's most extremist base in a climax of identity politics moves, and to deliberately generate chaos.

I have no idea how this can look like a good idea to anyone with more than 2 functioning neurons. It can only backfire. Has Trump already decided to resign and is he setting up a narrative that would allow him to do so whithout losing face?

pulga
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Re: POTUS 2017

Post by pulga » Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:43 pm

Buddha Vacana wrote: I have no idea how this can look like a good idea to anyone with more than 2 functioning neurons. It can only backfire. Has Trump already decided to resign and is he setting up a narrative that would allow him to do so whithout losing face?
Keep in mind he was only convicted of contempt of court. He's an 85-year-old man in poor health: jail-time would have most certainly shortened his life considerably if not ended it. I doubt that it is going to be very controversial: most Americans aren't as mean-spirited as the radical fringe left.
Last edited by pulga on Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

chownah
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Re: POTUS 2017

Post by chownah » Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:51 pm

Buddha Vacana wrote:Pardoning Arpaio makes no ethical nor logical sense, except to pander to Trump's most extremist base in a climax of identity politics moves, and to deliberately generate chaos.

I have no idea how this can look like a good idea to anyone with more than 2 functioning neurons. It can only backfire. Has Trump already decided to resign and is he setting up a narrative that would allow him to do so whithout losing face?
I quite often wrong about my political predictions but it doesn't stop me from making them. I think that trump is first and foremost concerned about his own brand and his political future is only important if it can be made to support his brand. I think that trump does not like being president because it puts him in a place where he can not achieve the outcomes he wants and it thwarts him in a very public way which upsets him. I think his plan is to make a show to his base that he has tried to do everything he said in the election but it is the democrats AND the republicans which have thwarted him....he is cementing his base. He wants to have a large block of 100% dedicated followers who will religiously support him. When he has this block tightly behind him he can act as a "king maker". He hopes to be able to control a swing vote block enabling him to make or break any candidate for the presidency.....and also stay at his hotels, drink his wine, and buy his daughters overpriced bling and glad rags etc.
chownah

Buddha Vacana
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Re: POTUS 2017

Post by Buddha Vacana » Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:57 pm

pulga wrote: Keep in mind he was only convicted of contempt of court.
He was convicted for defying judge’s order to stop racially profiling Latinos

pulga wrote:I doubt that it is going to be very controversial
Already is very much


https://twitter.com/13thgenusa/status/9 ... 6891032576


https://twitter.com/13thgenusa/status/9 ... 5451314176

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Mr Man
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Re: POTUS 2017

Post by Mr Man » Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:04 pm

& Gorka has gone.

chownah
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Re: POTUS 2017

Post by chownah » Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:05 pm

pulga wrote:
Buddha Vacana wrote: I have no idea how this can look like a good idea to anyone with more than 2 functioning neurons. It can only backfire. Has Trump already decided to resign and is he setting up a narrative that would allow him to do so whithout losing face?
Keep in mind he was only convicted of contempt of court. He's an 85-year-old man in poor health: jail-time would have most certainly shortened his life considerably if not ended it. I doubt that it is going to be very controversial: most Americans aren't as mean-spirited as the radical fringe left.
Yeah, he is an old man after a life of...of....well just look and see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio
Could the pardon be payback for joe's helping trump long ago:
From the wikipedia article:
Obama's birth certificate conspiracy theories

See also: Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories

On March 1, 2012, Arpaio and members of his Cold Case Posse held a news conference announcing their contention that President Barack Obama's long-form birth certificate, released by the White House on April 27, 2011,[193] is a computer-generated forgery. Additionally, the Posse's six-month-long review included an examination of President Obama's Selective Service card and contended that it, also, is a forgery. Their claims were presented at that press conference and at a second press conference held on March 31, 2012.[194][195] The allegations regarding the birth certificate were repeated at a July 17, 2012, news conference, where Arpaio stated that his investigators are certain that Obama's long-form birth certificate is fraudulent.[196]

Some of the major claims presented by Arpaio at the July 17 news conference were subsequently shown to be false; specifically, the 1961 Vital Statistics Instruction Manual that Arpaio and his team claimed to possess contradicted what they claimed it said, and images shown by them, purportedly from that manual, were instead from computer specifications dated 1968 and 1969.[197]

In response to Arpaio's claims, Joshua A. Wisch, a special assistant to the Attorney General of Hawaii, said in a statement, "President Obama was born in Honolulu, and his birth certificate is valid. Regarding the latest allegations from a sheriff in Arizona, they are untrue, misinformed and misconstrue Hawaii law."[198] Arizona state officials, including Governor Jan Brewer and Secretary of State Ken Bennett, also dismissed Arpaio's objections and accepted the validity of Obama's birth certificate.[199] Brewer also stated that Obama’s mother’s U.S. citizenship made him a citizen, regardless of where he was born.[200]

During September 2016, Arpaio claimed to be still investigating President Obama's birth certificate, stating, "We are looking at a forged document. Period."[201] On December 15, 2016, Arpaio held a news conference along with posse member Mike Zullo, detailing "9 points of forgery" supposedly found on the digital image of Obama's birth certificate.[202]
chownah

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Re: POTUS 2017

Post by lyndon taylor » Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:07 pm

Arpaio was convicted for being a racist, and Trump pardoned him, that means Trump supports Arpaio's racism, end of story.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

pulga
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Re: POTUS 2017

Post by pulga » Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:15 pm

The media is going to give it its best spin, but anyone with some compassion is going let the issue go. Arpaio is a despicable character, but to watch him die in jail is beyond the pale: especially given the crime he was actually convicted of. The Obama Administration was convicted of the same crime back in 2011, and was threatened by a federal judge to be charged yet again in 2015 when it ignored a court order regarding its immigration policy.

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Re: POTUS 2017

Post by lyndon taylor » Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:24 pm

Arpaio would have done just fine in jail, a lot of white supremacists there!!
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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Mr Man
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Re: POTUS 2017

Post by Mr Man » Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:30 pm

It’s hard to imagine how Arizona Sheriff Joe Arpaio could possibly stoop any lower in his zeal to arrest and humiliate people who are, or look like, immigrants, whether they have legal status or not. But Arpaio, who is clearly challenged in the department of human decency and dignity, is at it again. Telemundo 52, recently reported that Maricopa County Sheriff Arpaio forced a pregnant Latina who went into labor while detained to give birth while shackled to the bed. After a reportedly brutal arrest, Alma Minerva Chacon, went into labor the same night of her arrest and was rushed to the hospital with her legs and hands chained. The self-proclaimed “America’s Toughest Sheriff” is notorious for his racial profiling and brutal treatment of immigrants, including instituting chain gangs for females and juveniles, the introduction of pink underwear for male inmates, the parading of people in shackles to a segregated “tent city” in the Arizona desert, surrounded by electric fences. It’s not real clear just who Arpaio thinks he’s protecting and serving when he denies a request from a hospital to unchain a mother during her delivery and prohibits her from holding her newborn baby.
https://www.colorlines.com/articles/she ... h-shackles

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Re: POTUS 2017

Post by chownah » Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:43 pm

pulga wrote:The media is going to give it its best spin, but anyone with some compassion is going let the issue go. Arpaio is a despicable character, but to watch him die in jail is beyond the pale: especially given the crime he was actually convicted of. The Obama Administration was convicted of the same crime back in 2011, and was threatened by a federal judge to be charged yet again in 2015 when it ignored a court order regarding its immigration policy.
Is it beyond the pale? Should all convicts over a certain age be set free automatically?
chownah
edit: can you bring a reference about the obama administration being convicted of the same crime?
chownah

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Re: POTUS 2017

Post by pulga » Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:53 pm

Mr Man wrote:
It’s hard to imagine how Arizona Sheriff Joe Arpaio could possibly stoop any lower in his zeal to arrest and humiliate people who are, or look like, immigrants, whether they have legal status or not. But Arpaio, who is clearly challenged in the department of human decency and dignity, is at it again. Telemundo 52, recently reported that Maricopa County Sheriff Arpaio forced a pregnant Latina who went into labor while detained to give birth while shackled to the bed. After a reportedly brutal arrest, Alma Minerva Chacon, went into labor the same night of her arrest and was rushed to the hospital with her legs and hands chained. The self-proclaimed “America’s Toughest Sheriff” is notorious for his racial profiling and brutal treatment of immigrants, including instituting chain gangs for females and juveniles, the introduction of pink underwear for male inmates, the parading of people in shackles to a segregated “tent city” in the Arizona desert, surrounded by electric fences. It’s not real clear just who Arpaio thinks he’s protecting and serving when he denies a request from a hospital to unchain a mother during her delivery and prohibits her from holding her newborn baby.
And yet he was re-elected Sheriff again and again for 23 years. Contrary to what is implied in the quote, Arpaio was inclined to humiliate white jail inmates as much as he was those of other races. Apparently most of the voters in Maricopa County approved of such behavior. It could even be argued that it wasn't his policies, but his age that finally led to his election defeat. But I suppose demographics probably played a role as well.

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Re: POTUS 2017

Post by pulga » Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:56 pm

chownah wrote: edit: can you bring a reference about the obama administration being convicted of the same crime?
chownah
Just type "Obama Administration Contempt of Court" into Google.

chownah
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Re: POTUS 2017

Post by chownah » Sun Aug 27, 2017 3:14 am

pulga wrote:
chownah wrote: edit: can you bring a reference about the obama administration being convicted of the same crime?
chownah
Just type "Obama Administration Contempt of Court" into Google.
Thanks for that. I checked it out. It is not the same crime at all. The sheriff was jailed on a charge of "CRIMINAL contempt"....while the obama administration was convicted of "CIVIL contempt". They are really two different things.....really different.
Here is the court ruling which shows that the obama admin was charged with CIVIL contempt:
http://www.politico.com/static/PPM191_feldman.html
chownah

pulga
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Re: POTUS 2017

Post by pulga » Sun Aug 27, 2017 4:06 am

chownah wrote:
Thanks for that. I checked it out. It is not the same crime at all. The sheriff was jailed on a charge of "CRIMINAL contempt"....while the obama administration was convicted of "CIVIL contempt". They are really two different things.....really different.
Thank you for the correction. Both may lead to incarceration, though of course there was no person to take the fall for the Obama Administration if the judge had deemed incarceration warrantable.
Like those charged with criminal contempt, the court may order incarceration of people held in civil contempt. However, unlike individuals charged with criminal contempt, people held in civil contempt are generally not given the same constitutional rights that are guaranteed to criminal contempt defendants.

Those held in civil contempt generally must be given notice of the contempt sanctions and an opportunity to be heard, but usually are not guaranteed a jury trial. Also, their contempt does not need to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, while criminal contempt charges must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Finally, criminal contempt involves a specified sentence (jail and/or fine), while civil contempt sanctions can be more indefinite, lasting until either the underlying case is resolved or the party in contempt complies with the court order. -- Civil Contempt of Court
Given the current political climate would Arpaio been treated fairly -- and humanely considering his advanced age? He claims to have acted in exasperation when federal laws weren't being enforced in the county under his jurisdiction. Should he have been merely fined or sentenced to jail for up to six months? The President didn't think it was worth the risk, and he probably empathized with the sheriff when it came to immigration laws being ignored.

chownah
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Re: POTUS 2017

Post by chownah » Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:11 am

pulga wrote:
chownah wrote:
Thanks for that. I checked it out. It is not the same crime at all. The sheriff was jailed on a charge of "CRIMINAL contempt"....while the obama administration was convicted of "CIVIL contempt". They are really two different things.....really different.
Thank you for the correction. Both may lead to incarceration, though of course there was no person to take the fall for the Obama Administration if the judge had deemed incarceration warrantable.
Like those charged with criminal contempt, the court may order incarceration of people held in civil contempt. However, unlike individuals charged with criminal contempt, people held in civil contempt are generally not given the same constitutional rights that are guaranteed to criminal contempt defendants.

Those held in civil contempt generally must be given notice of the contempt sanctions and an opportunity to be heard, but usually are not guaranteed a jury trial. Also, their contempt does not need to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, while criminal contempt charges must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Finally, criminal contempt involves a specified sentence (jail and/or fine), while civil contempt sanctions can be more indefinite, lasting until either the underlying case is resolved or the party in contempt complies with the court order. -- Civil Contempt of Court
Given the current political climate would Arpaio been treated fairly -- and humanely considering his advanced age? He claims to have acted in exasperation when federal laws weren't being enforced in the county under his jurisdiction. Should he have been merely fined or sentenced to jail for up to six months? The President didn't think it was worth the risk, and he probably empathized with the sheriff when it came to immigration laws being ignored.
Given the current political climate has arpaio been treated fairly when he was a major supporter of trump's long ago campaign about where obama was born etc. as I mentioned above? I think that trump was just repaying someone for help in propogandizing many years ago.

For those not following this closely, arpaio was pardoned BEFORE he was sentenced. It could be that a light sentence would have been given or even a suspended sentence. The fact that trump didn't wait for the sentenceing shows the propogandistic nature of the pardon. Trump could have waited to see if there was any reason to pardon him or not but if he had waited and if the sentence was inconsequential it would rob trump of the chance to propogandize the event. By pardoning him before sentencing let's his supporters (and others) to fantasize how awful it would be to do such a horrible thing to such an old man like throwing him in jail and with him having such fragile health....how cruel and uncaaring is the judicial system sometimes and how compassionate is our man pres. trump.

Trump could have waited to see if pardoning was even necessary but there was more propogandistic advantage in acting immediately.....and after all the sheriff had helped trump out with a major propoganda message at the outset of the obama administration.
chownah

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