POTUS 2017

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
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pulga
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Re: POTUS 2017

Post by pulga » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:22 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:31 pm


(Useful viewing for anyone who hates Donald Trump or originally previously bought into the whole "Russia!" narrative, but is now having second thoughts, since no collusion has been found...)....
Good stuff. Once the OIG report is made public the appointment of a special counsel will be inevitable. I shudder to think to where it might lead.

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DooDoot
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Re: POTUS 2017

Post by DooDoot » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:23 am

:alien:
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

chownah
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Re: POTUS 2017

Post by chownah » Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:31 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:15 am
Greetings Chownah,

OK, you tell yourself that...

:lol:

You certainly can't say you weren't warned. 8-)

Horowitz's OIG report is expected to drop this month or next.

Enjoy the show.

Metta,
Paul. :)
What's it going to be about?
chownah

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retrofuturist
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Re: POTUS 2017

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:51 am

Greetings Chownah,
chownah wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:31 am
What's it going to be about?
This.

But it's not quite so simple, because the same DOJ/FBI people involved in covering up the Hillary Clinton classified info/email scandal are the same DOJ/FBI people involved in the FISA Court/Steele Dossier shenanigans and are the same DOJ/FBI people involved in the Flynn case.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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DooDoot
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Re: POTUS 2017

Post by DooDoot » Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:07 am

Its insanity. How can be taken seriously, apart from tragically. :|


chownah
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Re: POTUS 2017

Post by chownah » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:35 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:51 am
Greetings Chownah,
chownah wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:31 am
What's it going to be about?
This.

But it's not quite so simple, because the same DOJ/FBI people involved in covering up the Hillary Clinton classified info/email scandal are the same DOJ/FBI people involved in the FISA Court/Steele Dossier shenanigans and are the same DOJ/FBI people involved in the Flynn case.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Thank for the info. You said that I have been warned......why would I need a warning?...and what would the warning be about? Do you think that I am in some way involved in this stuff? :spy: :jumping:
You seem to think that I have a horse in the race.....I do not.
I hope that horowitz catches all the bad guys (and gals).....and gives them a good spanking.
chownah

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retrofuturist
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Re: POTUS 2017

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:10 am

Greetings Chownah,
chownah wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:35 am
You said that I have been warned......why would I need a warning?...and what would the warning be about? Do you think that I am in some way involved in this stuff?
No, but you've been so persistently adamant for the past 12 months or so that so much of what is said on these matters is either "conspiracy theory" or "fake news", that when the outcome of these investigations turns out to be somewhat different to what you were led to believe by your trusted, so-called reputable media sources, there may be a degree of cognitive dissonance experienced. Mind you, I think you'll be fine. Others maybe not so much. I for one am expecting riots in the blue states. Perhaps the marines are too...?


chownah wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:35 am
I hope that horowitz catches all the bad guys (and gals).....and gives them a good spanking.
Well he can at least make the recommendation that they get a good spanking... and I believe he shall.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

chownah
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Re: POTUS 2017

Post by chownah » Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:42 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:10 am
Greetings Chownah,
chownah wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:35 am
You said that I have been warned......why would I need a warning?...and what would the warning be about? Do you think that I am in some way involved in this stuff?
No, but you've been so persistently adamant for the past 12 months or so that so much of what is said on these matters is either "conspiracy theory" or "fake news", that when the outcome of these investigations turns out to be somewhat different to what you were led to believe by your trusted, so-called reputable media sources, there may be a degree of cognitive dissonance experienced. Mind you, I think you'll be fine. Others maybe not so much. I for one am expecting riots in the blue states. Perhaps the marines are too...?
I know what conspiracy theories are and when one is presented and I recognize it I call it what it is.
Mostly what I have called fake news is your misrepresentation of things. I would gladly post support for my claims of your fake news but you just either clam up or call me a sea lion. Either way I don't care. I think this time you will just clam up as the term sealioning has gone out of fashion amongst the internet poobahs.....it actually never had a very wide following anyway....I think it was mostly used by you and that 400 pound fat guy that trump hypothesised did all the russian hacking......but there might have been someone else but I have no idea who that would be....maybe it was milo....or maybe it was ovaltine......
chownah

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Re: POTUS 2017

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:27 pm

Greetings chownah,
chownah wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:42 pm
I would gladly post support for my claims of your fake news but you just either clam up or call me a sea lion.
No, I just have no time or interest in answering questions which are clearly asked in bad faith, no matter who they're from. So long as a questioner is asking questions for the genuine purpose of seeking answers, and I have the time to provide answers, I generally will. If that willingness is being abused, the willingness ceases.

On the flipside of that, if I'm not interested in someone's answers, I will not ask them questions.

My preference for conversation is that:

- individuals are free to express their perspective,
- other people are free to be interested in that perspective, or not,
- clarification can be sought but not demanded, and that
- hounding others due to a dislike of what is said is pretty intolerant and uncooth.

I hope that provides clarification on why and when I may or may not engage in conversation. I apply the same principles impartially to all.

:geek:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

chownah
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Re: POTUS 2017

Post by chownah » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:52 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:27 pm
Greetings chownah,
chownah wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:42 pm
I would gladly post support for my claims of your fake news but you just either clam up or call me a sea lion.
No, I just have no time or interest in answering questions which are clearly asked in bad faith, no matter who they're from. So long as a questioner is asking questions for the genuine purpose of seeking answers, and I have the time to provide answers, I generally will. If that willingness is being abused, the willingness ceases.

On the flipside of that, if I'm not interested in someone's answers, I will not ask them questions.

My preference for conversation is that:

- individuals are free to express their perspective,
- other people are free to be interested in that perspective, or not,
- clarification can be sought but not demanded, and that
- hounding others due to a dislike of what is said is pretty intolerant and uncooth.

I hope that provides clarification on why and when I may or may not engage in conversation. I apply the same principles impartially to all.

:geek:

Metta,
Paul. :)
What you have written supports what I have suspected about your avoidance of some issues raised....in that it seems that if you do not want to reply to a post you claim to know the intent of its author that intent being posting in bad faith and that they are abusing your willingness.....and that if the author is trying to focus the discussion on the salient issue instead of going on the wild chase being put up to avoid that salient issue then you know that the author is hounding and being intolerant and uncooth.

This is a very common strategy to avoid interaction especially when one wants to avoid the possibility that one might be wrong......blah blah blah. Having seen this strategy clearly manifest in my self and having heard many other people who have had the self awareness to have feretted it out in their own behavior and seeing how many people present the exact same scenarios I have come to the conclusion that there are many many people who use this strategy unknowingly.

I think that in many instance the root of the problem is the avoidance of the thought that "maybe I am wrong and she/he is right".....self defense....identity defense....clinging to views....
chownah

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retrofuturist
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Re: POTUS 2017

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:09 am

Greetings chownah,

This is not a debate club. If it were, I would be obliged to debate with you in accordance with set parameters.

Yet, it is not, and I have no interest in that mode of engagement. I have explained my preferred mode of engagement, and I'm under no obligation to adhere to yours, no matter how much rancour that may give rise to.

Likewise, you may twist and falsely misrepresent the causality I described in order to bring it in alignment with your projections...
retrofuturist wrote:I just have no time or interest in answering questions which are clearly asked in bad faith, no matter who they're from.
(versus)
chownah wrote:if you do not want to reply to a post you claim to know the intent of its author
... but it is meaningless perversion on your part, as I'll speak my truth, and you'll speak yours. When your interpretation of my truth is wrong, then your resultant conclusions follow on as being in error.

Some people have a propensity to "assume the worst" - others take that one step further and "insist the worst". That being so, and in keeping with my preferred mode of engagement, I have no inclination to respond to such people when they turn that inclination towards me. (When they turn this propensity to Trump, I may chuckle to myself at how much this propensity and resultant papanca has shaped their views)

For me, perception of bad faith in a correspondent removes my incentive to respond to them. It's not at all about finding excuses to avoid certain questions. It's more that I know that when a certain person isn't genuinely interested in hearing and considering the response, and they are either sealioning and/or tilting at windmills, there is a lack of authenticity in the questions being posed. Given that lack of authenticity and failure to abide in civil discourse, what would be the point in responding to their incessant questioning? What is the return on that investment? I see none. Do you?

Hopefully now we have clearly separated my preferences from your projection.

Thank you.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

chownah
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Re: POTUS 2017

Post by chownah » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:25 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:09 am
Hopefully now we have clearly separated my preferences from your projection.
I have always kept separate your preference and my projection....they are clearly different and seperate views. The question is really which is a better descriptor of the dynamic which drives the process.

I'm more interested in the difference between your projections about my intentions and my views of my own intentions and which is a better descriptor of the dynamic which drives the process of my posting since this seems to be the basis for your entire fabrication of "posting in bad faith", "abusing your willingness", "hounding", "intolerence", and "uncooth"ness.

How can you be so certain of my intent?....how do you arive at your projection? Having watched our interactions for a long time now it really does seem to be that the only time this projection of yours becomes active is at the times when the discussion reaches a point where there is a credible question as to the strength of your assertions leaving little room for continued assertive reply and the question of the soundness of your assertions is difficult.....otherwise you are unstoppable it seems. For instance, right now it would make sense to think that I am "posting in bad faith", "abusing your willingness", "hounding", "intolerence", and "uncooth".....but you have a reply which furthers your assertions so you continue......it is only when you are stumped for a way to maintain your position that your projection arises I guess.
chownah

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retrofuturist
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Re: POTUS 2017

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:54 am

Greetings chownah,
chownah wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:25 am
Having watched our interactions for a long time now it really does seem to be that the only time this projection of yours becomes active is at the times when the discussion reaches a point where there is a credible question as to the strength of your assertions leaving little room for continued assertive reply and the question of the soundness of your assertions is difficult.... ...it is only when you are stumped for a way to maintain your position that your projection arises I guess.
You are simply repeating yourself.

I have explained to you my preferences for conversation and I have clarified my thought processes and rationale in a subsequent posting. There is nothing more within reason that I can and ought to do in such a circumstance.

For you to have said what you have said above once is to "assume the worst". To continue on with these aspersions despite the clarification is to "insist the worst". (I made this delineation in my posting immediately prior to this one).

I have no incentive to engage with another who would "insist the worst" rather than listen to and take on board what is actually said to them in good faith. Life is too short for such inauthentic "communication".

Fare well.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Kim OHara
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Re: POTUS 2017

Post by Kim OHara » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:04 am

I usually stay out of this thread but I thought this one was so oddball that many may miss it, which would be a shame.
Gina Haspel: As If Nuremberg Never Happened
Nothing will say more about who we've become as a nation than if a torturer is allowed to head the CIA.

Nothing will say more about who we are, across three American administrations—one that demanded torture, one that covered it up, and one that seeks to promote its bloody participants—than whether Gina Haspel becomes director of the CIA.

Haspel oversaw the torture of human beings in Thailand as the chief of a CIA black site in 2002. Since then, she’s worked her way up to deputy director at the CIA. With current director Mike Pompeo slated to move to Foggy Bottom, President Donald Trump has proposed Haspel as the Agency’s new head.

Haspel’s victims waiting for death in Guantanamo cannot speak to us, though they no doubt remember their own screams as they were waterboarded. And we can still hear former CIA officer John Kiriakou say: “We did call her Bloody Gina. Gina was always very quick and very willing to use force. Gina and people like Gina did it, I think, because they enjoyed doing it. They tortured just for the sake of torture ...
One of the oddest things about this is the source: The American Conservative.
:thinking:
:reading: http://www.theamericanconservative.com/ ... -happened/

:coffee:
Kim


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