Contemporary threats to free speech

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
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lyndon taylor
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by lyndon taylor » Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:15 pm

SO a liberal company like google is not allowed to have any left wing bias, but a right wing company like Fox is totally allowed to have an extreme right wing bias. Shows me right there you don't care one bit about free speech, you're just using it as a ploy to further the right wing agenda.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

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retrofuturist
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:47 pm

Greetings Lyndon,

Your aspersions are typically non-sensical.

Fox is a mainstream media company and would be better compared in this regard to something like MSNBC or Fake News CNN. I don't see anyone here suggesting that these left-wing/globalist "news" outlets or their (Russia! Russia! Russia!) conspiracy theories should be censored, do you? (If you find someone here doing that, let me know and we can discuss it.)

After all, who is to decide for all people what is true and what is false? 1984's Ministry of Truth provides an excellent representation of the kinds of motives, methods and behaviours which would underpin such an endeavour. Best to, as we do here at Dhamma Wheel, respect the intellectual autonomy of people and let them decide for themselves in the open marketplace of ideas.

Yet, if that "marketplace of ideas" were to become not quite so open, and monopoly owned by someone with the same goals and ambitions as 1984's Ministry of Truth... the ability to erase, conceal, or de-emphasize unfavoured views... the ability to covertly manipulate your ability to search for information... I wonder what that might look like...?

:spy:

1984 = 2018

:geek:

Social Media Is a Tool of the CIA. Seriously (CBS News)
Google’s true origin partly lies in CIA and NSA research grants for mass surveillance (Quartz)
How The CIA Made Google (Zero Hedge)



Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

chownah
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by chownah » Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:53 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:07 pm
Greetings Chownah,

So you believe in "freedom of the (organized) press" but not "freedom of the (social) press"...? Interesting. Does this mean that if David and our team start silencing you because we don't like your political leanings then you won't object? No "whining" from Chownah?
I really don't know what you are saying here. If by "social press" you mean things like youtube then I have just given a post which argues for its right to freedom to engage in its business as it sees fit. I see dhammawheel in the same way as youtube with respect to this issue....and I have have historically argued strongly in favor of dhammawheel having the right to run its site as it sees fit whether I agree with it or not.....if I whine (or not) concerning anything the dhammawheel administration does has nothing to do with it....I support its right to run its business in whatever way it sees fit. I see this as promoting the freedom of the social press.

We seem to have a disconnect in that I think I am supporting the freedom of the social press and you think that I am denying it.....can you explain your point of view more fully?
chownah

pulga
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by pulga » Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:26 am

Search engines and social media sites should have the right to censor their contents, but it is imperative that those who believe in the free flow of ideas call them out on their bias. Ideally there would be competitors who would come forward with more open and free formats that would better serve the public good.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:49 am

Greetings Pulga,
pulga wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:26 am
..., but it is imperative that those who believe in the free flow of ideas call them out on their bias.
Like this?...

Confirmed: Facebook’s Recent Algorithm Change Is Crushing Conservative Sites, Boosting Liberals
Facebook’s much-publicized demotion of publishers’ content in users’ news feeds has negatively impacted conservative-leaning publishers significantly more than liberal-leaning outlets, an analysis by The Western Journal has revealed.

Liberal publishers have gained about 2 percent more web traffic from Facebook than they were getting prior to the algorithm changes implemented in early February.

On the other hand, conservative publishers have lost an average of nearly 14 percent of their traffic from Facebook.

This algorithm change, intentional or not, has in effect censored conservative viewpoints on the largest social media platform in the world. This change has ramifications that, in the short-term, are causing conservative publishers to downsize or fold up completely, and in the long-term could swing elections in the United States and around the world toward liberal politicians and policies.
Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

pulga
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by pulga » Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:40 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:49 am
pulga wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:26 am
..., but it is imperative that those who believe in the free flow of ideas call them out on their bias.
Like this?...

Confirmed: Facebook’s Recent Algorithm Change Is Crushing Conservative Sites, Boosting Liberals
I'd love to see some tweets from President Trump to make the public more aware of what's going on.

chownah
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by chownah » Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:45 am

Indeed there is political bias in the media....and just about everywhere else. This is not new....it is ancient....it has been this way ever since there was media and probably before.

People need to see that this is normal even if undesirable.....and that it in and of itself is not a threat to free speech. What would be threat to free speech is if a situation arises where it is impossible for some view to be presented at all. An EXAMPLE of this would be a gov't enforcing prior restraint:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prior_restraint
Prior restraint (also referred to as prior censorship[1] or pre-publication censorship) is censorship imposed, usually by a government or institution, on expression, that prohibits particular instances of expression. It is in contrast to censorship which establishes general subject matter restrictions and reviews a particular instance of expression only after the expression has taken place.
Of course, allowing speech and then severely punishing the speaker after the fact constitutes another kind of threat to free speech in that it would have the tendency to gag people from speaking in fear of the punishment.
chownah

pulga
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by pulga » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:58 pm

Niall Ferguson on the effects of social networking.


chownah
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by chownah » Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:09 am

pulga wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:40 am
retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:49 am
pulga wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:26 am
..., but it is imperative that those who believe in the free flow of ideas call them out on their bias.
Like this?...

Confirmed: Facebook’s Recent Algorithm Change Is Crushing Conservative Sites, Boosting Liberals
I'd love to see some tweets from President Trump to make the public more aware of what's going on.
Yeah, I always welcome more trump tweets so that we can see that what is going on is him being a self-obsessed horse's ass whose lies are as steady as his heart beat and who would sell freeom of speech down the river for a song.
(Thanks for giving me a chance to practice some self righteous denigration. I like practicing it but I don't like to have to lie in order to do it....with trump it is not lying so I am grateful for the opportunity you have given me.)
chownah

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retrofuturist
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:10 am

Greetings,



Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Sam Vara
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by Sam Vara » Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:37 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:10 am
Greetings,



Metta,
Paul. :)
One hopes that the police statement is wrong due to the mangled English and poverty of expression that afflicts many British police officers. But sadly, I don't think it is. The country of Milton, Locke, and Mill has (depending on your local police force) thought crimes.

Note also the category of "hate incident". This would appear to have no purpose than to frighten the public, and produce bogus statistics about the number of racists, sexists, ageists, homophobes, transphobes, and any-old-phobes who are lurking among us and need rooting out.

Each generation that grows up thinking this is normal increases the ratchet effect and makes it harder to resist this drift towards dystopia.

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Mr Man
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by Mr Man » Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:21 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:37 pm
But sadly, I don't think it is. The country of Milton, Locke, and Mill has (depending on your local police force) thought crimes.

No it doesn’t. You are lying.

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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:31 pm

Greetings,
Mr Man wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:21 pm
No it doesn’t. You are lying.
So... someone has a different perspective to you, Mr Man...

And they're deemed to be "lying".

It seems it's not just the UK police who are interested in alleging "thought crimes".

:spy:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Mr Man
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by Mr Man » Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:41 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:31 pm
Greetings,
Mr Man wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:21 pm
No it doesn’t. You are lying.
So... someone has a different perspective to you, Mr Man...

And they're deemed to be "lying".

It seems it's not just the UK police who are interested in alleging "thought crimes".

:spy:

Metta,
Paul. :)
He is lying. It is not true.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by Sam Vara » Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:44 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:21 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:37 pm
But sadly, I don't think it is. The country of Milton, Locke, and Mill has (depending on your local police force) thought crimes.

No it doesn’t. You are lying.
Thank you for your courteous and informative comment, Mr. Man.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:54 pm

Greetings Chownah,
chownah wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:45 am
What would be threat to free speech is if a situation arises where it is impossible for some view to be presented at all. An EXAMPLE of this would be ...
Image

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

chownah
Posts: 7266
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by chownah » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:19 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:54 pm
Greetings Chownah,
chownah wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:45 am
What would be threat to free speech is if a situation arises where it is impossible for some view to be presented at all. An EXAMPLE of this would be ...
Image

Metta,
Paul. :)
I have no idea how your post relates the post you are replying to....can you explain?
chownah

binocular
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by binocular » Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:04 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:37 pm
One hopes that the police statement is wrong due to the mangled English and poverty of expression that afflicts many British police officers. But sadly, I don't think it is. The country of Milton, Locke, and Mill has (depending on your local police force) thought crimes.

Note also the category of "hate incident". This would appear to have no purpose than to frighten the public, and produce bogus statistics about the number of racists, sexists, ageists, homophobes, transphobes, and any-old-phobes who are lurking among us and need rooting out.

Each generation that grows up thinking this is normal increases the ratchet effect and makes it harder to resist this drift towards dystopia.
In order to establish guilt in a criminal proceeding, means, motive, and opportunity must be evidenced.
Given this, it makes sense to propose that any of these three per se can be problematic, especially motive.

Besides, Buddhism readily acknowledges thought crimes.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:30 am

binocular wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:04 am

In order to establish guilt in a criminal proceeding, means, motive, and opportunity must be evidenced.
Given this, it makes sense to propose that any of these three per se can be problematic, especially motive.
Despite these being useful guides in establishing guilt, there is nothing in English law which codifies this. Guilt is determined when a court establishes that the criteria for a crime being committed have been met. The problem with the issue of thought crime in the UK is that one can theoretically receive the attentions of the police without actually having done anything more than revealing ones attitudes or desires. There have been laws relating to conspiracy for a long time, but recent developments mean that the police are now targetting individuals on the basis of what others think they meant. This is a retrograde step.
Besides, Buddhism readily acknowledges thought crimes.
I'm not sure what counts as "Buddhism", but I haven't seen the concept of "thought crime" expressed in the Pali canon. My guess is that any Buddhist who thinks the Buddha used such a concept is confused about meaning.

binocular
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by binocular » Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:58 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:30 am
The problem with the issue of thought crime in the UK is that one can theoretically receive the attentions of the police without actually having done anything more than revealing ones attitudes or desires. There have been laws relating to conspiracy for a long time, but recent developments mean that the police are now targetting individuals on the basis of what others think they meant. This is a retrograde step.
Yet this approach seems rather normal in psychiatry and its applications. For example, every day, kids get stigmatized as sociopaths solely on the words of others.
Besides, Buddhism readily acknowledges thought crimes.
I'm not sure what counts as "Buddhism", but I haven't seen the concept of "thought crime" expressed in the Pali canon. My guess is that any Buddhist who thinks the Buddha used such a concept is confused about meaning.
I'm refering to mental actions being as much subject to one's own scrutiny as one's verbal and physical actions. One can, for example, transgress the precepts only mentally, but those are still transgressions.

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