Contemporary threats to free speech

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:18 pm

Greetings Mr Man,
Mr Man wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:27 pm
Hi Pulga
Okay. The particular message in the tweet seems to be false (a distortion at best). What is your opinion on spreading falsehoods?
What is your opinion on staying on-topic and desisting from churlish smears?

:focus:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

pulga
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by pulga » Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:57 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:27 pm
Okay. The particular message in the tweet seems to be false (a distortion at best). What is your opinion on spreading falsehoods?
Certainly Mr. Sweden doesn't deserve to be sentenced to prison. Europe seems to be going in the wrong direction when it comes to individual liberties. Suzanne Nossel offers a well balanced approach to the problem.
Recognizing fraudulent news as a threat to free expression cannot be grounds to justify a cure — in the form of new government or corporate restrictions on speech — that may end up being worse than the disease. Unscrupulous profiteers and political opportunists may never cease in their efforts to infect the global information flow of information to serve their purposes. The best prescription against the epidemic of fake news is to inoculate consumers by building up their ability to defend themselves.
The Pro-Free Speech Way to Fight Fake News

Though I have more sympathy for President Trump than does Ms. Nossel when it comes to his challenging media bias.

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Mr Man
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by Mr Man » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:48 am

Hi pulga
pulga wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:57 pm
Certainly Mr. Sweden doesn't deserve to be sentenced to prison.
I guess that would depend on what he did and the laws of the land in which he lives.
pulga post wrote: Europe seems to be going in the wrong direction when it comes to individual liberties.
In my experience, in the UK, I don't think that is true. It seems like people actually have more "freedom" than when I was growing up and more opportunity to express themselves (for better and for worse).

Here is something :offtopic: from the UK's not distant past - 1988–94 British broadcasting voice restrictions

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988%E2%8 ... strictions

& thanks for the link.

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by Pseudobabble » Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:59 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:48 am
Hi pulga
pulga wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:57 pm
Certainly Mr. Sweden doesn't deserve to be sentenced to prison.
I guess that would depend on what he did and the laws of the land in which he lives.

So..... all those people murdered by their evil governments (USSR, Nazis, Khmer Rouge, there are many) deserved it, because they broke laws instituted by those murderous governments? Seriously, think what you are actually saying.

To be more direct - you are saying that breaking the law = being deserving of the consequences of doing so? I think that's pretty easy to question.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

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Mr Man
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by Mr Man » Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:53 pm

Hi Pseudobabble
Pseudobabble wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:59 pm
So..... all those people murdered by their evil governments (USSR, Nazis, Khmer Rouge, there are many) deserved it, because they broke laws instituted by those murderous governments? Seriously, think what you are actually saying.
That is not what I am actually saying.
Pseudobabble wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:59 pm
To be more direct - you are saying that breaking the law = being deserving of the consequences of doing so?
No I am not.

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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by Pseudobabble » Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:09 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:53 pm
Hi Pseudobabble
Pseudobabble wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:59 pm
So..... all those people murdered by their evil governments (USSR, Nazis, Khmer Rouge, there are many) deserved it, because they broke laws instituted by those murderous governments? Seriously, think what you are actually saying.
That is not what I am actually saying.
Pseudobabble wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:59 pm
To be more direct - you are saying that breaking the law = being deserving of the consequences of doing so?
No I am not.

Please explain further.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

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Mr Man
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by Mr Man » Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:36 pm

Hi Pseudobabble
This is a complete red herring you are chasing but here goes. I was responding to pulga's Comment
Certainly Mr. Sweden doesn't deserve to be sentenced to prison.
And was specifically referring to "Mr. Sweden" who incidentally isn't being sentenced to prison as far as I know .

Now if "Mr. Sweden" were to be prosecuted and convicted for a crime in the UK, for example, and was sentenced in accordance with UK law then his punishment would be deserved in the eyes of the law. That does not mean that I believe his punishment is just or appropriate.

And just for the record I had found pulga's Mr Sweden sentence amusing in a nice way.

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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by chownah » Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:42 am

Mr Man wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:36 pm
Hi Pseudobabble
This is a complete red herring you are chasing but here goes.
It is not a red herring. The context that you put you response in does in the english language using commonly held principles of logic and inference mean exactly pseudobabble said.
While you may think that your words convey a particular meaning and that meaning is important it is just as important to realize that ones wording and context can convey a completly different meaning to others.....the unintended consequence. In this case both pseudobabble and I took the same meaning from your words and context.
Get in a huff,
chownah

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Mr Man
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by Mr Man » Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:56 am

chownah wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:42 am
It is not a red herring. The context that you put you response in does in the english language using commonly held principles of logic and inference mean exactly pseudobabble said.
While you may think that your words convey a particular meaning and that meaning is important it is just as important to realize that ones wording and context can convey a completly different meaning to others.....the unintended consequence. In this case both pseudobabble and I took the same meaning from your words and context.
Get in a huff,
chownah
Hi Chownah

Here is a definition of red herring - "A red herring is something that misleads or distracts from a relevant or important issue."

Here is the conversation with pulga
Mr Man wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:48 am
Hi pulga
pulga wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:57 pm
Certainly Mr. Sweden doesn't deserve to be sentenced to prison.
I guess that would depend on what he did and the laws of the land in which he lives.
pulga post wrote: Europe seems to be going in the wrong direction when it comes to individual liberties.
In my experience, in the UK, I don't think that is true. It seems like people actually have more "freedom" than when I was growing up and more opportunity to express themselves (for better and for worse).

Here is something :offtopic: from the UK's not distant past - 1988–94 British broadcasting voice restrictions

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988%E2%8 ... strictions

& thanks for the link.
The text that I have bolded was the key point from my reply.

The line
I guess that would depend on what he did and the laws of the land in which he lives.
was meant as banter. pulga had referred to the wrong person "Mr. Sweden". It is not important. It is based on something that did not happen - Mr. Sweden was not sentenced.

The sentence "I guess that would depend on what he did and the laws of the land in which he lives" has become a red herring.

I do take your point though.

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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by pulga » Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:51 pm

Unfortunately my inadvertence has detracted from the seriousness of what is actually occurring in Germany. It really is a troubling story, and portends a dark future.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by Sam Vara » Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:51 am

...And here's another one.
That feeling when you’re a teaching assistant and in your communications class you play a Jordan Peterson clip about pronouns and freedom of speech, hoping to spur discussion, and you then get reported and hauled in front of faculty and the manager of the university’s Gendered and Sexual Violence Prevention and Support Office for a ritual scolding, during which you’re accused of remaining politically neutral, which is deemed both a “problem” and in itself “threatening,” before being accused of “gender-based violence.”

The teaching assistant in question, Lindsay Shepherd, has, at the time of writing, been allowed to keep her teaching position at Wilfrid Laurier University, Ontario, but must now file copies of her lesson plans in advance for vetting and must allow faculty members to sit in on her sessions as and when they wish. Presumably, to head off any further political neutrality.
http://davidthompson.typepad.com/davidt ... .html#more

The case is also compellingly articulated here:

http://www.desertsun.co.uk/blog/?p=6046

Anyone who is not severely coulrophobic will enjoy the audio clip secretly recorded by Ms. Shepherd, and which is linked in both articles.

chownah
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by chownah » Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:46 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:51 am
...And here's another one.
That feeling when you’re a teaching assistant and in your communications class you play a Jordan Peterson clip about pronouns and freedom of speech, hoping to spur discussion, and you then get reported and hauled in front of faculty and the manager of the university’s Gendered and Sexual Violence Prevention and Support Office for a ritual scolding, during which you’re accused of remaining politically neutral, which is deemed both a “problem” and in itself “threatening,” before being accused of “gender-based violence.”

The teaching assistant in question, Lindsay Shepherd, has, at the time of writing, been allowed to keep her teaching position at Wilfrid Laurier University, Ontario, but must now file copies of her lesson plans in advance for vetting and must allow faculty members to sit in on her sessions as and when they wish. Presumably, to head off any further political neutrality.
http://davidthompson.typepad.com/davidt ... .html#more

The case is also compellingly articulated here:

http://www.desertsun.co.uk/blog/?p=6046

Anyone who is not severely coulrophobic will enjoy the audio clip secretly recorded by Ms. Shepherd, and which is linked in both articles.
Here is a quote from the wikipedia article "Wilfrid Laurier University" (which is the university where this happened:
In November 2017, the university became the subject of a free speech and academic freedom controversy, for censuring a teaching assistant after she neutrally presented a three-minute recording of a debate including Jordan Peterson[9] who advocated against the use of gender-neutral pronouns from a TVOntario programme. The university administration claimed that this promoted transphobia and censured the TA.[10][11] After the audio recording of the meeting between professors and the teaching assistant was publicised, a professor and Laurier President Deborah MacLatchy issued a public apology to the TA. "The conversation I heard does not reflect the values and practices to which Laurier aspires", MacLatchy wrote.[12] When the Laurier incident was raised as a "freedom of speech" issue in Parliament during Question Period, Minister of Science Kirsty Duncan replied, "Our government is committed to creating open spaces for Canadians to debate and express their views."[13]
chownah

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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by robertk » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:35 am

Unbelievable. :rofl:

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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:53 am

Greetings,
robertk wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:35 am
Unbelievable. :rofl:
:shock:

(direct link to audio)

Yes.

Intelligent Lady vs the Leftist Thought Police.

:spy:

"Problematic" :lol:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

binocular
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by binocular » Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:40 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:53 am
Intelligent Lady vs the Leftist Thought Police.
In Europe, it's the Rightist Thought Police that does such things.

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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:44 am

Greetings binocular,
binocular wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:40 am
retrofuturist wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:53 am
Intelligent Lady vs the Leftist Thought Police.
In Europe, it's the Rightist Thought Police that does such things.
Would you care to elaborate? Who is doing it, and what kinds of thoughts and ideas are they trying to police?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

binocular
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by binocular » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:56 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:44 am
Would you care to elaborate? Who is doing it, and what kinds of thoughts and ideas are they trying to police?
Actually, I'll contact you in private.

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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:57 am

Greetings,
binocular wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:56 am
retrofuturist wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:44 am
Would you care to elaborate? Who is doing it, and what kinds of thoughts and ideas are they trying to police?
Actually, I'll contact you in private.
:spy:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Sam Vara
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by Sam Vara » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:07 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:57 am
Greetings,
binocular wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:56 am
retrofuturist wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:44 am
Would you care to elaborate? Who is doing it, and what kinds of thoughts and ideas are they trying to police?
Actually, I'll contact you in private.
:spy:

Metta,
Paul. :)
Hi binocular,

Please could you include me in? Not because I am particularly partisan on this and want to get into a row about "left versus right", but because as someone with an interest in politics I'm genuinely interested in new topics.

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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:11 am

Greetings Sam,
Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:07 am
Please could you include me in? Not because I am particularly partisan on this and want to get into a row about "left versus right", but because as someone with an interest in politics I'm genuinely interested in new topics.
Likewise... authoritarianism comes in many forms.

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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