Contemporary threats to free speech

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Sam Vara
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by Sam Vara » Sun May 27, 2018 7:02 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 6:56 pm

Do you think he has been treated unfairly?
I can't be sure, but I think he probably has.
Where is the conspiracy?
If he has been treated unfairly, then people needed to conspire to make that happen.
Do you think it is likely that he will be conveniently murdered while in jail?
I don't know about likely, but he is probably more at risk of being killed or harmed than the average prisoner arrested for Breach of the Peace, or jailed for contempt.

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Mr Man
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by Mr Man » Sun May 27, 2018 7:23 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 7:02 pm
Mr Man wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 6:56 pm

Do you think he has been treated unfairly?
I can't be sure, but I think he probably has.
And why do you think that? Do you think he wasn't in contempt of court?
Sam Vara wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 7:02 pm
Where is the conspiracy?
If he has been treated unfairly, then people needed to conspire to make that happen.
And who do you think it might be that has conspired?
Sam Vara wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 7:02 pm
Do you think it is likely that he will be conveniently murdered while in jail?
I don't know about likely, but he is probably more at risk of being killed or harmed than the average prisoner arrested for Breach of the Peace, or jailed for contempt.
But it isn't really that likely is it?

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Sam Vara
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by Sam Vara » Sun May 27, 2018 7:36 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 7:23 pm

And why do you think that? Do you think he wasn't in contempt of court?
If the judge says he was, then he was. He is a professional provocateur, and seems to be poorly legally advised. But the lack of fairness relates to the fact that had anyone else committed it, they would not have been jailed. He was arrested, for example, for Breach of the Peace; when there didn't appear to be one. And then charged with something else.
And who do you think it might be that has conspired?
The Government and local police force, at least. And he is of course claiming that there is a wider conspiracy of silence involving the media and the Home Office.
But it isn't really that likely is it?
He has been attacked on numerous occasions, and has received death threats, so I think murder or serious injury is a possibility.

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lyndon taylor
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by lyndon taylor » Sun May 27, 2018 7:41 pm

The question is why do you care so much about this despicable creature??
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by Pseudobabble » Sun May 27, 2018 7:41 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 7:23 pm
And why do you think that? Do you think he wasn't in contempt of court?
He was - but doubtless someone less.. irritating to the prevailing morality would be treated less in a less heavy-handed manner.
Mr Man wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 7:23 pm
And who do you think it might be that has conspired?
The trial outside which he was filming is one which is likely to inflame tensions if it were more widely publicised. Making a stink outside the courtrooms would be a great annoyance to those wishing to preserve a conciliatory narrative.
Mr Man wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 7:23 pm
But it isn't really that likely is it?
A small chance of death is ok :thinking: ? Anyhow, the man in question is not short of enemies, so I'm not sure what you're statement is based on.

EDIT: Mr Man pointed out I quoted Sam Vara instead of Mr Man himself, which is what I meant to do.
Last edited by Pseudobabble on Sun May 27, 2018 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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Sam Vara
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by Sam Vara » Sun May 27, 2018 7:50 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 7:41 pm
The question is why do you care so much about this despicable creature??
Who is it that you think "cares so much for this despicable creature"? And again, who is expressing support for neo-nazis? I don't care for him at all, and I'm not expressing support for neo-nazis. I think that his jailing - regardless of the man's character, political views, or morality - is one of those "contemporary threats to free speech" that this thread is about.

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by Pseudobabble » Sun May 27, 2018 7:55 pm

The year is 1936. Two Germans are sitting together having a sherry after dinner. One of the Germans is a supporter of the Nazy party, but the other is not so sure about their policies on Jews. The Nazi says,
lyndon taylor wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 7:41 pm
The question is why do you care so much about this despicable creature??
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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Mr Man
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by Mr Man » Sun May 27, 2018 7:58 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 7:36 pm
Mr Man wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 7:23 pm

And why do you think that? Do you think he wasn't in contempt of court?
If the judge says he was, then he was. He is a professional provocateur, and seems to be poorly legally advised. But the lack of fairness relates to the fact that had anyone else committed it, they would not have been jailed. He was arrested, for example, for Breach of the Peace; when there didn't appear to be one. And then charged with something else.
This is from 2017 "Ex-EDL leader Tommy Robinson spared jail for contempt of court"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/pa/art ... court.html

That he was arrested on Breach of the Peace and then charged for something else is, in my opinion, is insignificant.
Sam Vara wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 7:36 pm
And who do you think it might be that has conspired?
The Government and local police force, at least. And he is of course claiming that there is a wider conspiracy of silence involving the media and the Home Office.
You think the Conservative Government is involved in a conspiracy against Tommy Robinson? Really?
Sam Vara wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 7:36 pm
But it isn't really that likely is it?
He has been attacked on numerous occasions, and has received death threats, so I think murder or serious injury is a possibility.
Well it is a possibility but fairly unlikely don't you think?

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Leeuwenhoek2
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by Leeuwenhoek2 » Sun May 27, 2018 8:04 pm

A good use of 3:20 listening to a psychologist who specializes in the study of morality and how moral values influence politics. It argues that free speach of a certain kind leads to more wisdom.

(11 min)
The key message is in the first 3 minutes. But you may want to hang on for the next part.
This information is highly applicable to Buddhists engaged in social/political engagement.

--------------------------------------------
I recommend both of Jonathan Haidt's books:
Happiness Hypothesis: Finding Modern Truth in Ancient Wisdom (2006) -- makes a good case for Buddhist practice to a secular audience.

The Righteous Mind: Why Good People are Divided by Politics and Religion (2012) -- I think this book has a very important message for politically engaged Buddhists.
I'd venture the opinion that understanding this research is almost a ethical requirement for politically engaged leaders.

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lyndon taylor
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by lyndon taylor » Sun May 27, 2018 8:10 pm

Pseudobabble wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 7:55 pm
The year is 1936. Two Germans are sitting together having a sherry after dinner. One of the Germans is a supporter of the Nazy party, but the other is not so sure about their policies on Jews. The Nazi says,
lyndon taylor wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 7:41 pm
The question is why do you care so much about this despicable creature??
Except you have it backwards, Robinson is the Nazi you're defending.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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Mr Man
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by Mr Man » Sun May 27, 2018 8:12 pm

Pseudobabble wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 7:41 pm
Mr Man wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 7:23 pm
And why do you think that? Do you think he wasn't in contempt of court?
He was - but doubtless someone less.. irritating to the prevailing morality would be treated less in a less heavy-handed manner.
His arrest didn't seem particularly heavy-handed
Pseudobabble wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 7:41 pm
Mr Man wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 7:23 pm
And who do you think it might be that has conspired?
The trial outside which he was filming is one which is likely to inflame tensions if it were more widely publicised. Making a stink outside the courtrooms would be a great annoyance to those wishing to preserve a conciliatory narrative.
These trials do normally get publicised after the convictions. The story of one was even made into an award winning TV show.
Pseudobabble wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 7:41 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 7:02 pm
But it isn't really that likely is it?
A small chance of death is ok :thinking: ? Anyhow, the man in question is not short of enemies, so I'm not sure what you're statement is based on.
I think you have misquoted Sam Vara. No murder is not okay. Yes it is possible another inmate will murder him.

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lyndon taylor
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by lyndon taylor » Sun May 27, 2018 8:23 pm

They have protective custody for target prisoners in prison and jail, they also have solitary for police officers etc sentenced to prison, there is no possibility he will be set loose in the general prison population, so the murder speculation is pretty bogus.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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Sam Vara
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by Sam Vara » Sun May 27, 2018 8:41 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 7:58 pm
That he was arrested on Breach of the Peace and then charged for something else is, in my opinion, is insignificant.
OK, we all attribute different amounts of significance to things. I'm happy to differ amicably on that one.
You think the Conservative Government is involved in a conspiracy against Tommy Robinson? Really?
I doubt if it is discussed at cabinet meetings, but yes, I do. And it involves the media too. Robinson is a provocateur who represents a considerable threat to the narrative which the government and the media is spinning around globalisation, national identity, and immigration. Live-streaming "Muslim rapists" outside a court is certainly a breach of his conditions (if not of the peace!) but the Government's wider concern is that stunts like this could spark a general backlash against minorities and the way that they and Englishness have been represented. Perhaps this is no more significant than the police being experts in white working-class thuggery, and selling the government a line about this being more significant than the other threats which they are clearly not up to dealing with. But something is happening; the game is changing.
Well it is a possibility but fairly unlikely don't you think?
I can't give you numerical odds, but when I'm talking about the government dealing with a person who is politically and ideologically inconvenient to them, estimating the chances of his political murder at "fairly unlikely" makes me think that our rulers could try a little harder.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by Sam Vara » Sun May 27, 2018 8:55 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 8:23 pm
They have protective custody for target prisoners in prison and jail, they also have solitary for police officers etc sentenced to prison, there is no possibility he will be set loose in the general prison population, so the murder speculation is pretty bogus.
It wasn't bogus when he was attacked in prison before. He complained of Muslim gangs running the prison wings, and the prison officers turning a blind eye to the danger he was in. Following this, a spokesperson for a Muslim group raised his case regarding prison attack with the Home Secretary.

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Mr Man
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by Mr Man » Tue May 29, 2018 5:32 pm

So Robinson pleaded guilty to contempt of court and expressed deep regret.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-44287640

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