Contemporary threats to free speech

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
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Cittasanto
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by Cittasanto » Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:02 pm

Some news about universities being fined if the no platform people in the UK

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-42481329?SThisFB
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

binocular
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by binocular » Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:46 pm

A Croatian general found guilty of crimes in the Yugoslavian secession wars rejected the verdict and committed suicide in the courtroom:
On 29 November 2017, during the pronouncement of the appeal judgment against him, Praljak addressed the judges, saying: "Judges, Slobodan Praljak is not a war criminal. With disdain, I reject your verdict!"[31][32][33] He then drank what he said was poison,[31][32] leading presiding judge Carmel Agius to suspend the hearings.[11] ICTY medical staff transported Praljak to nearby HMC Hospital,[8] where he died.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slobodan_Praljak
Video

The Croatian government also rejected the verdict.

binocular
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by binocular » Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:56 pm

Also in Croatia:

Students of the seventh grade, in the course of Croatian language and literature, in secular public schools, must

-- invite Jesus into their families,
-- write a fictional interview with their priest,
-- write their own prayer to God,
-- answer the question whether they feel called to serve Christ,
-- find parts of the Gospel online that they will read to the class,

and all this regardless whether they are Christian or not.

https://www.tportal.hr/vijesti/clanak/n ... o-20171228

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retrofuturist
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:38 am

Greetings,

College Presidents Say: "Hate Speech Is Not Free Speech"

But there's no "hate speech" exception to the First Amendment.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

Disciple
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by Disciple » Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:20 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:38 am
Greetings,

College Presidents Say: "Hate Speech Is Not Free Speech"

But there's no "hate speech" exception to the First Amendment.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Should neo nazis be allowed to give speeches at colleges in your opinion?

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retrofuturist
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:25 am

Greetings,
Disciple wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:20 am
Should neo nazis be allowed to give speeches at colleges in your opinion?
Existing laws are sufficient to stop people inciting criminal activity.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

chownah
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by chownah » Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:38 am

Should people be allowed to go to the health classes in elementary schools (years 1 to 6) and teach how to do same sex acts and to expain how good it feels and its many advantages?
chownah

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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:48 am

Greetings chownah,

No.

At university (I.e. adult age) offer what you like (within the scope of the law) and let people decide if they're interested.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

pulga
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by pulga » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:50 am

Disciple wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:20 am
Should neo nazis be allowed to give speeches at colleges in your opinion?
As the famous jurist Learned Hand once said, “Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it.”
Why Even Nazis Deserve Free Speech -- By Greg Lukianoff and Nico Perrino, August 19, 2017

binocular
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by binocular » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:22 pm

Disciple wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:20 am
Should neo nazis be allowed to give speeches at colleges in your opinion?
I'm starting to think that all this has nothing much to do with speech per se, but with having laws at all. If a state is to have laws, then, well, it should have laws. About this or that, it doesn't seem to be all that relevant what they are about (and in fact, some very important things don't seem to be legislated at all, such as the meaning of life), as long as they are there.

The laws of a state are not produced in a systematic and comprehensive manner, but in what in hindsight appears to be an arbitrary manner that reflects the political prowess of some parties or individuals, but also a measure of luck. Moreover, since laws are not absolute and can be abolished, it's evident that their nature is relative. As such, they're not something to rely on or to build one's life upon.

binocular
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by binocular » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:31 pm

pulga wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:50 am
As the famous jurist Learned Hand once said, “Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it.”
Why Even Nazis Deserve Free Speech -- By Greg Lukianoff and Nico Perrino, August 19, 2017
The question is, whether liberty has ever lived in the hearts of men and women. And if yes, in the hearts of how many.

It seems that to most people, the notion of free speech has always seemed an artificial imposition, and that this is why it doesn't stick, or only in a conditional form (inasmuch people simply strive to be law-abiding citizens, without having much appreciation for the actual laws themselves).

chownah
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by chownah » Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:16 pm

It seems that in the usa there are certain ideologies which are resisted so vehemently that people giving speeches at universities incur very large security expenses and public rioting. This seems to be a fact which is not going to go away....so....what can be done to protect free speech.
The solution: Universities should have or have access to live prodcast of speeches from safe places to public venues so that the protected speech can be presented and heard without danger to the speaker. Viewing sites can be distributed widely so that it would be difficult to impossible for hoodlums to shut them down.....a system for audience interaction could be implemented....the system could be very much like a live in person speech but it would thwart the hoodlums.
The most important thing is that ideas can be freely disseminated and people would be able to question the speaker too.....all of the important aspects of free speech would be maintained.
This should satisfy the need for speech to be freely made for people to hear....but it will not satisfy the speakers whose main goal is to cause hoodlum action against theirselves and want to appear persecuted.......interesting how most of the speakers it seems that were shut down by the hoodlums did not think that the speech they were slated to give was important enough for them to transcribe it and make it freely available on the internet.....or did they do that and I just missed it?
chownah

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Mr Man
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by Mr Man » Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:35 pm

pulga wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:50 am
Disciple wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:20 am
Should neo nazis be allowed to give speeches at colleges in your opinion?
As the famous jurist Learned Hand once said, “Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it.”
Why Even Nazis Deserve Free Speech -- By Greg Lukianoff and Nico Perrino, August 19, 2017
In the same speech Learned Hand went on to say
What is this liberty that must lie in the hearts of men and women? It is not the ruthless, the unbridled will; it is not the freedom to do as one likes. That is the denial of liberty and leads straight to its overthrow. A society in which men recognize no check on their freedom soon becomes a society where freedom is the possession of only a savage few — as we have learned to our sorrow.
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Learned_Hand

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retrofuturist
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:03 pm

Greetings,

Canadian Woman Arrested in Germany for Questioning Holocaust in Viral Video
Speaking of freedom of speech (or the lack thereof) and communism disguised as “liberalism” or “progressiveness” making a big-comeback in Western Europe, we just got word from B’nai Brith that a Canadian woman from Alberta was arrested in Germany. Her crime? Well, her crime is historic revisionism, i.e. a thought-crime. The thing is, in modern Germany (and other “democratic” EU countries, France comes to mind), it is forbidden by law to question the holocaust. The punishment for holocaust heresy can land the sinner for up to five years in prison. Speaking of the non aggression principle, in 2018 in Germany you can go to jail for a significant amount of time just for expressing a view on a historic event that took place almost 80 years ago. The latest victim of Germany’s pathological historic-guilt with regard to War World 2 is Monika Schaefer, who got reported (as in they rat her out) by B’nai Brith, a Jewish group, who filed a complaint with German authorities against the Canadian woman for what they described as anti-semitic incitement.

The anti-semitic incitement accusation is due to a video made by Monika Schaefer back in 2016. The video was titled “Sorry Mom, I was wrong about the holocaust” and incidentally, it became viral, boasting more than 160,000 views. The respective video (see below) depicts Monika Schaefer telling her (German) mom that she regrets blaming her for not taking action to stop the holocaust, referring to the death camps, arbeit macht frei and the whole nine yards. And that’s because later in her life, Monika Schaefer learned through research that the holocaust as presented by mainstream-historians was, let me quote, the “biggest and most pernicious and persistent lie in all of history.” According to Monika Schaefer, detention camps (forced labor camps) clearly existed, but they were used by Nazi Germany to help with the war effort, i.e. the Germans had no interested in killing their free labor-force, as they were vital to work in factories. She also said that the famous gas chambers were actually used to kill the disease-carrying lice (typhus was big then, and a lot of the prisoners in concentration camps died from typhus, a lice-carried disease) on prisoners’ clothing. For these assertions, she was arrested in Germany and imprisoned, facing 5 years of jail time.


Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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SDC
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by SDC » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:29 pm

She should be able to think and say whatever she wants, but you have to wonder about anyone who goes public to deny or question the Holocaust. Not because of any overwhelming evidence that it did in fact occur or not (that's besides my point), but because the backlash is clearly known. There is no question how the world will react. Only a masochist or idiot would take the time to endure that aspect. And for what? She should not have to go to real jail, just idiot jail.

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