Contemporary threats to free speech

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:25 am

Greetings Pulga,
pulga wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:23 am
I don't want to entice anyone into a thoughtcrime, but ...
:spy:

Thanks.

:reading:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

chownah
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by chownah » Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:37 am

pulga wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:23 am
I don't want to entice anyone into a thoughtcrime, but Professor Gilley's essay is available -- at least for the time being -- online and downloadable.

The Case for Colonialism.
Then it appears that those who would thwart free speech have themselves been thwarted. Gilley's ideas are now free to the public.

I think that with the technology that we have now it is impossible to deny someone free speech. No longer is anyone dependent on a public venue or publisher as thier avenue for having their speech freely available to the public.

chownah

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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:48 am

Greetings Chownah,
chownah wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:37 am
Then it appears that those who would thwart free speech have themselves been thwarted. Gilley's ideas are now free to the public.
Not only that, but as per the blog entry linked to above...
So it seems that we have another version of James Damore on our hands. Dr. Gilley’s article is, or at least has the potential for being, another Google memo. It’s certainly a worthy sequel. It could have been entitled “Academia’s ideological echo chamber: how bias clouds our thinking about colonialism.” And as with the infamous Google memo, I have little doubt that many times as many people will read “The case for colonialism” now as a result of its being anathematized as heresy, as would have read it if the hysterical PC thought police had had the emotional maturity to leave it alone, contenting themselves with the harder work of actually refuting its claims. (I certainly would never have heard of it, or of the Third World Quarterly, if it hadn’t elicited yet another hysterical leftist sh!tstorm commented upon by conservative and libertarian bloggers.)
Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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mikenz66
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:16 am

Off-topic meta-discussion removed.

:heart:
Mike

chownah
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by chownah » Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:09 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:48 am
Greetings Chownah,
chownah wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:37 am
Then it appears that those who would thwart free speech have themselves been thwarted. Gilley's ideas are now free to the public.
Not only that, but as per the blog entry linked to above...
So it seems that we have another version of James Damore on our hands. Dr. Gilley’s article is, or at least has the potential for being, another Google memo. It’s certainly a worthy sequel. It could have been entitled “Academia’s ideological echo chamber: how bias clouds our thinking about colonialism.” And as with the infamous Google memo, I have little doubt that many times as many people will read “The case for colonialism” now as a result of its being anathematized as heresy, as would have read it if the hysterical PC thought police had had the emotional maturity to leave it alone, contenting themselves with the harder work of actually refuting its claims. (I certainly would never have heard of it, or of the Third World Quarterly, if it hadn’t elicited yet another hysterical leftist sh!tstorm commented upon by conservative and libertarian bloggers.)
Metta,
Paul. :)
So.....is this good or is it bad....I can't tell.
chownah

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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by Cittasanto » Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:38 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:43 am
Greetings Chownah,
This statement of freedom of speech, however, is not consistent with a legal perspective on freedom of speech. For example, if Sally stands really close to Alice and shouts expletives in Alice's face and Alice strikes Sally rendering her unconscious it is unlikely (unheard of?) that Alice would be charged with violating Sally's right to free speech but she will probably be charged with aggrevated assault I think....and in pursuing personal damages if Sally's attorney claimed that Sally's rights of free speech were violated the judge might just laugh and dismiss although I don't know for sure.

Also, if someone is at work and someone becomes beligerent and berates people and refuses to stop then a common result is that the employee will be removed from the premisis and probably fired from their job.......claiming a violation of freedom of speech would not fly in a court of law.
These kind of thought experiments needlessly conflate the "right to free speech" with the non-existent "right to injure people" or the equally non-existent "right to keep my job, regardless of my speech".

Metta,
Paul. :)
It is also worth noting that freedom of expression /speech refers to governments limiting speech without warrant ie advocating violence.
Kind regards
Cittasanto
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:13 am

Greetings,

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Sam Vara
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by Sam Vara » Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:38 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:13 am
Greetings,

Metta,
Paul. :)
Yes, nothing on MSM here. On digging around a little, I found that Sturzenberger has been given a suspended sentence, rather than imprisonment. But the message here is crystal clear. I was intrigued to know whether it was the criticism of Islam which riled the state, or the depiction of Nazis. According to some accounts, it is both! Particularly poignant was the prosecution claim that the casual reader of Sturzenberger's blog would not immediately know that the photo was an actual historical document. It appears that posting anything which could allow people to make up their own narrative is culpable!
http://thefederalistpapers.org/us/germa ... ced-prison

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Mr Man
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by Mr Man » Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:50 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:13 am
Greetings,
-
Metta,
Paul. :)

Paul. Is this true?

Here is something about Peter Sweden

http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/2017/08/0 ... -revealed/

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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:56 am

Greetings Mr.Man,
Mr Man wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:50 am
Paul. Is this true?
Yes, see Sam Vara's comments and link.
Mr Man wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:50 am
Here is something about Peter Sweden
Interesting how you seem to imply that smearing the messenger will somehow negate the message. Good luck with that.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Mr Man
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by Mr Man » Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:02 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:56 am
Greetings Mr.Man,
Mr Man wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:50 am
Paul. Is this true?
Yes, see Sam Vara's comments.
My reading of the article, linked to by Sam, is that the tweet is not true.
retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:56 am
Mr Man wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:50 am
Here is something about Peter Sweden
Interesting how you seem to imply that smearing the messenger will somehow negate the message. Good luck with that.
What is the message?

pulga
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by pulga » Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:38 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:02 pm
What is the message?
For me, it isn't so much the message but the right to express it.

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Dharmasherab
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by Dharmasherab » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:04 pm

One of the main threats to free speech and expression is the culture of name calling which is gaining momentum. There are self-rightous individuals who are so certain of the political position that they occupy and consider all other people who have alternative political viewpoints as evil and fascist.

Today words such as facist or racist is used to silence anyone even when statements which are brought forward on rational grounds.

Even in a debate when one occupies a different position they are called names to attach stigma.

There is a video called 'Illiberal Progressives' on YouTubet made by the YouTuber Sargon of Akkad. He explains how people of our modern day who have appropriated the term 'liberal' threaten our basic values of free speech and expression. The video is a bit long (more than an hour) but it helps to shed light on what is wrong with the liberalism movement in western society. Things which are completely alien to free speech and expression is promoted in the name of 'liberalism' such as censorship.

I am not from a Western country and I had my own view as to what true 'liberalism' was. I thought it was about promoting a culture where people can express themselves as they wish. But after living in Western nations I honestly dont know what the word 'liberal' means any more. It appears to me that puritans in our society has appropriated the term 'liberal'.

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Mr Man
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by Mr Man » Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:27 pm

pulga wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:38 pm
Mr Man wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:02 pm
What is the message?
For me, it isn't so much the message but the right to express it.
Hi Pulga
Okay. The particular message in the tweet seems to be false (a distortion at best). What is your opinion on spreading falsehoods?

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Will
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Re: Contemporary threats to free speech

Post by Will » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:18 pm

Dharamasherab -It appears to me that puritans in our society have appropriated the term 'liberal'.
Sometimes the notion of Neo-Victorians occurs to me. Just as back then there was a definite standard of proper behavior that the upper classes enforced eagerly as their righteous duty, so today another class does that. Only now it is not an economic class (some overlap), but a political class.
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- AN 10.1

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