Common thread in violence in Sri Lanka and Mynamar

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rajitha7
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Common thread in violence in Sri Lanka and Mynamar

Post by rajitha7 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:50 am

Myanmar is in news for all the wrong reasons. There is, however, a common thread between the conflict there and Sri Lanka.

Its discussed here and here.

The Rohingya seeks a federated state within Myanmar with autonomy and Islamic laws. The majority Buddhists are resisting. The Rohingya are recent migrants to Myanmar from Bangladesh.
Unsurpassed is the Lord’s way of teaching the Dhamma concerning one’s proper moral conduct. One should be honest and faithful, without deception, chatter, hinting or belittling, not always ready to add gain to gain, but with the sense-doors guarded, moderate in food, a promoter of peace, observant, active and strenuous in effort, a meditator, mindful, with proper conversation, steady-going, resolute and sensible, not hankering after sense pleasures, but mindful and prudent. This is the unsurpassed teaching concerning a person’s proper ethical conduct. - Sampasādanīya, Dīgha Nikāya 28

Caodemarte
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Re: Common thread in violence in Sri Lanka and Mynamar

Post by Caodemarte » Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:16 pm

rajitha7 wrote:Myanmar is in news for all the wrong reasons. There is, however, a common thread between the conflict there and Sri Lanka.

Its discussed here and here.

The Rohingya seeks a federated state within Myanmar with autonomy and Islamic laws. The majority Buddhists are resisting. The Rohingya are recent migrants to Myanmar from Bangladesh.
This is factually incorrect on all counts.
The linked source material is deeply and obviously wrong.
Please refer to any standard history of Sri Lanka or Myanmar, rather than this nonsense.

rajitha7
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Re: Common thread in violence in Sri Lanka and Mynamar

Post by rajitha7 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:20 pm

Caodemarte wrote:This is factually incorrect on all counts..
Since we are both followers of the Dhamma both know the consequences of being dishonest.

Kindly be specific so that I can expand on the material. Which item starting the one that most concerns you? I will be honest with you,
Unsurpassed is the Lord’s way of teaching the Dhamma concerning one’s proper moral conduct. One should be honest and faithful, without deception, chatter, hinting or belittling, not always ready to add gain to gain, but with the sense-doors guarded, moderate in food, a promoter of peace, observant, active and strenuous in effort, a meditator, mindful, with proper conversation, steady-going, resolute and sensible, not hankering after sense pleasures, but mindful and prudent. This is the unsurpassed teaching concerning a person’s proper ethical conduct. - Sampasādanīya, Dīgha Nikāya 28

pulga
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Re: Common thread in violence in Sri Lanka and Mynamar

Post by pulga » Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:53 am

To say that the Sinhala and Tamils of Sri Lanka need to learn to live with one another is a perverse understatement. The only way the country is ever going to heal itself is through justice, tolerance, and compassion.

Sri Lanka's Killing Fields

Caodemarte
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Re: Common thread in violence in Sri Lanka and Mynamar

Post by Caodemarte » Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:00 am

rajitha7 wrote:
Caodemarte wrote:This is factually incorrect on all counts..
Since we are both followers of the Dhamma both know the consequences of being dishonest.

Kindly be specific so that I can expand on the material. Which item starting the one that most concerns you? I will be honest with you,

Your two statements are often made in the context of racist propaganda and, as such, often considered offensive. They have no historical basis. Rohingya, for example, are not recent immigrants from Bangladesh, but have been in the area fo a long, long time. There is no mass Rohingya popular support for forming an Islamic mini-state in Myanmar, partially because it would be suicidal in the extreme. However, you could argue that the current anti-Muslim pogroms are creating a Muslim insurgency (and certainly the attention of foreign militants) and the need for self defense will lead to such a movement.

The linked source falsely claims that the Tamil population of Sri Lanka was brought in "as slaves" by the British. The is a huge error in a fundamental factor in Sri Lankan history. The best guess I can make here is a confusion of the majority Tamil population (whose ancestors may or may not have preceded the Sinhala migration or been concurrent) with the minority Tamil population who came in to work the tea plantations. And so on and so on in the cited sources. Please consult any standard histories by reputable scholrs for a more factual account. For Sri Lanka, the readily available "A history of Sri Lanka" by K. M. De Silva is good place to start.
Last edited by Caodemarte on Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

rajitha7
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Re: Common thread in violence in Sri Lanka and Mynamar

Post by rajitha7 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:15 am

Caodemarte wrote:The linked source falsely claims that the Tamil population of Sri Lanka was brought in "as slaves" by the British.
Well, this is [north] and this is [east] of the island in 1695 - just after Dutch occupation. These are from the Dutch archives. The link to the collection here.

The villages in the north east are predominantly Sinhala. The situation today is the complete opposite. So the Tamils must have come from somewhere.

The only inference is the slave Tamil population imported into the country. Refer here. The British records mention "Slaves from the Parish of Pt. Pedro" etc. The ethnicity is Tamil. How else would Tamil population increase in the North and the East?
Unsurpassed is the Lord’s way of teaching the Dhamma concerning one’s proper moral conduct. One should be honest and faithful, without deception, chatter, hinting or belittling, not always ready to add gain to gain, but with the sense-doors guarded, moderate in food, a promoter of peace, observant, active and strenuous in effort, a meditator, mindful, with proper conversation, steady-going, resolute and sensible, not hankering after sense pleasures, but mindful and prudent. This is the unsurpassed teaching concerning a person’s proper ethical conduct. - Sampasādanīya, Dīgha Nikāya 28

rajitha7
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Re: Common thread in violence in Sri Lanka and Mynamar

Post by rajitha7 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:30 am

Caodemarte wrote: There is no mass Rohingya popular support for forming an Islamic mini-state in Myanmar
Well, the list of Rohingya political aspirations are as follows.
By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development. Being indigenous peoples, they have the right to maintain and strengthen their distinct political, economic, social and cultural characteristics, as well as their legal systems

[more ...]
So the Rohingya seeks a Muslim federated state with an Islamic legal system.
Caodemarte wrote: Rohingya, for example, are not recent immigrants from Bangladesh, but have been in the area fo a long, long time.
There are no Burmese records of "Rohingya". Refer here. The earliest reference is a colonial British reference in 1799.
Unsurpassed is the Lord’s way of teaching the Dhamma concerning one’s proper moral conduct. One should be honest and faithful, without deception, chatter, hinting or belittling, not always ready to add gain to gain, but with the sense-doors guarded, moderate in food, a promoter of peace, observant, active and strenuous in effort, a meditator, mindful, with proper conversation, steady-going, resolute and sensible, not hankering after sense pleasures, but mindful and prudent. This is the unsurpassed teaching concerning a person’s proper ethical conduct. - Sampasādanīya, Dīgha Nikāya 28

SarathW
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Re: Common thread in violence in Sri Lanka and Mynamar

Post by SarathW » Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:33 am

The problem for many world problems is that we are bogged down in the history. (his story)
The most effective way to resolve conflict is to look at what is the situation today.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

rajitha7
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Re: Common thread in violence in Sri Lanka and Mynamar

Post by rajitha7 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:45 am

rajitha7 wrote:
pulga wrote:To say that the Sinhala and Tamils of Sri Lanka need to learn to live with one another is a perverse understatement. The only way the country is ever going to heal itself is through justice, tolerance, and compassion.

Sri Lanka's Killing Fields
No one disagrees on compassion with justice. Justice demands knowledge of what happened to a reasonable extent,

So, for example, linking a video that suggests 40,000 people were killed in 5 months is certainly not going to ensure "justice" when the other side is not given an ear.

The documentary above needs to accompany a rebuttal. That can be found here.

Unsurpassed is the Lord’s way of teaching the Dhamma concerning one’s proper moral conduct. One should be honest and faithful, without deception, chatter, hinting or belittling, not always ready to add gain to gain, but with the sense-doors guarded, moderate in food, a promoter of peace, observant, active and strenuous in effort, a meditator, mindful, with proper conversation, steady-going, resolute and sensible, not hankering after sense pleasures, but mindful and prudent. This is the unsurpassed teaching concerning a person’s proper ethical conduct. - Sampasādanīya, Dīgha Nikāya 28

pulga
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Re: Common thread in violence in Sri Lanka and Mynamar

Post by pulga » Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:19 am

rajitha7 wrote: The documentary above needs to accompany a rebuttal.
I find your rebuttal chilling, given the duress that the Tamils were under during its making. The Channel 4 documentary for the most part is in agreement with the details and the storyline that the UN Spokesman for Sri Lanka during the culmination of the war Gordon Weiss presents in his book The Cage. One need only a cursory familiarity of the way the Sri Lankan government suppressed the JVP insurrection in the late 80's and early 90's to give credence to the claims of the Tamils.

There is so much blood on the hands of both sides that at this point I think that tolerance and acceptance -- and the simple act of treating one another as human beings -- is what is most needed. If war crimes were committed they should of course be prosecuted, but on a societal level forgiveness probably overrides justice.

Your preposterous belief that the Sinhala have the right to rule over the Tamils simply because they outnumber them is absurd and immoral. It isn't the sort of democracy the world needs. God have mercy on Sri Lanka if such sentiments are common amongst the Sinhala.

rajitha7
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Re: Common thread in violence in Sri Lanka and Mynamar

Post by rajitha7 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:48 am

pulga wrote: UN Spokesman for Sri Lanka during the culmination of the war Gordon Weiss presents in his book The Cage.
Most certainly, as with anything one needs to gain a perspective on the author of "The Cage" too. That can be found here.
An excerpt. :
When he was in Sri Lanka he put the figure at 7,000. After he left his UN job and went to Australia he jacked it up to 40,000 to sensationalize his book, The Cage. At a book launch held in Melbourne last week, he changed his figure again and came down to 10,000 under questioning by Chanaka Bandarage, a lawyer. Bandarage then asked why the brochure had mentioned 40,000. Weiss had disowned responsibility and passed the buck to the Deakin University which produced the brochure.
[more..]
pulga wrote: One need only a cursory familiarity of the way the Sri Lankan government suppressed the JVP insurrection in the late 80's and early 90's to give credence to the claims of the Tamils.

There is so much blood on the hands of both sides that at this point I think that tolerance and acceptance -- and the simple act of treating one another as human beings -- is what is most needed. If war crimes were committed they should of course be prosecuted, but on a societal level forgiveness probably overrides justice.
War is horrendous and results in deaths. Japan kicked off a campaign against USA bombing Pearl harbor. It was ended with incredible consequences for Nagasaki and Hiroshima. The way to aviod bad experiences with wars is not starting one in the first place.

No one needs to deny justice to anyone. In fact, the OP mention commonality between the Rhohingya and the Tamils situation and how it started. The justice if required needs to begin from where the first rock was thrown.
pulga wrote: Your preposterous belief that the Sinhala have the right to rule over the Tamils simply because they outnumber them is absurd and immoral. It isn't the sort of democracy the world needs. God have mercy on Sri Lanka if such sentiments are common amongst the Sinhala.
Well, I am not sure where you sprung this from. I have given above how the events unfolded. It has nothing in there that suggests anything of that nature.
Unsurpassed is the Lord’s way of teaching the Dhamma concerning one’s proper moral conduct. One should be honest and faithful, without deception, chatter, hinting or belittling, not always ready to add gain to gain, but with the sense-doors guarded, moderate in food, a promoter of peace, observant, active and strenuous in effort, a meditator, mindful, with proper conversation, steady-going, resolute and sensible, not hankering after sense pleasures, but mindful and prudent. This is the unsurpassed teaching concerning a person’s proper ethical conduct. - Sampasādanīya, Dīgha Nikāya 28

Caodemarte
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Re: Common thread in violence in Sri Lanka and Mynamar

Post by Caodemarte » Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:28 am

rajitha7 wrote:
Caodemarte wrote:The linked source falsely claims that the Tamil population of Sri Lanka was brought in "as slaves" by the British.
Well, this is [north] and this is [east] of the island in 1695 - just after Dutch occupation. These are from the Dutch archives. The link to the collection here.

The villages in the north east are predominantly Sinhala. The situation today is the complete opposite. So the Tamils must have come from somewhere.

The only inference is the slave Tamil population imported into the country. Refer here. The British records mention "Slaves from the Parish of Pt. Pedro" etc. The ethnicity is Tamil. How else would Tamil population increase in the North and the East?
The inferences you seem to be making don't logically flow from your sources or make much sense. They also fly against mountains of documents, historical records, architectural, archeological and other evidence. I think your quarrel is not with me and reality does not pay me to defend it.

Again, I would ask you to read any standard non-partisan historical work to clear up what appear to be basic and fundamental misunderstandings of Sri Lankan history or how history is done. (I have given you the name of one easily available, standard, accepted, and well known work by one of Sri Lanka's most famous historians). I suggest you do to the same with Burma. If you do, you will see why these claims are patently absurd and fairly offensive.

rajitha7
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Re: Common thread in violence in Sri Lanka and Mynamar

Post by rajitha7 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:47 am

Caodemarte wrote:The inferences you seem to be making don't logically flow from your sources or make much sense. They also fly against mountains of documents, historical records, architectural, archeological and other evidence.
Well, there is a reason why in the year 1695 the north was predominantly Sinhala. In Jaffna - only the king was a Pandyan Tamil. It was similar to King of Kandy who was sitting on a Sinhala throne.

The Jaffna kings' subjects, his wife, his ministers were all predominantly Sinhala. His standard was a lion, his was a devout Buddhist along with his wife. His wife wants to commit suicide if forced to convert to Christianity by the Portuguese etc. Sinhala is the official language. The treaty he signs with the Portuguese is also in Sinhala. [More ...]

So that is why the North-East is predominantly Sinhala when the Dutch arrives. The entire NE changes with the British bringing Tamils in large numbers. They also declare Jaffna an "Exclusive Malabar Region" [More ...].
Caodemarte wrote:Again, I would ask you to read any standard non-partisan historical work to clear up what appear to be basic and fundamental misunderstandings of Sri Lankan history or how history is done..
All of the information given above are from European sources.
Unsurpassed is the Lord’s way of teaching the Dhamma concerning one’s proper moral conduct. One should be honest and faithful, without deception, chatter, hinting or belittling, not always ready to add gain to gain, but with the sense-doors guarded, moderate in food, a promoter of peace, observant, active and strenuous in effort, a meditator, mindful, with proper conversation, steady-going, resolute and sensible, not hankering after sense pleasures, but mindful and prudent. This is the unsurpassed teaching concerning a person’s proper ethical conduct. - Sampasādanīya, Dīgha Nikāya 28

pulga
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Re: Common thread in violence in Sri Lanka and Mynamar

Post by pulga » Thu Dec 22, 2016 5:12 am

rajitha7 wrote: Well, I am not sure where you sprung this from. I have given above how the events unfolded. It has nothing in there that suggests anything of that nature.
From the link you provided.

As for the UN's assessment of Sri Lanka this news just came out today.

UN agency says government torture and abductions continue in Sri Lanka.

rajitha7
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Re: Common thread in violence in Sri Lanka and Mynamar

Post by rajitha7 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:57 pm

pulga wrote:
rajitha7 wrote: Well, I am not sure where you sprung this from. I have given above how the events unfolded. It has nothing in there that suggests anything of that nature.
From the link you provided.
The link provided there illustrates a number of things.

- Both Tamil and Rohingya are not indigenous in either Sri Lanka or Myanmar
- There may have been an insignificant numbers given proximity to India and Bangladesh, however, the bulk of the population are recent migrants that have been imported for work.
- Both populations have been kept isolated i.e. "Exclusive Malabar Region" of Colebrook (refer above) in the respective countries.
- Both populations were used against the native Sinhala and Myanmar people for divide-and-rule policies.
- Post independence both populations are demanding self-determination when it's a right reserved for indigenous people under international law.

That is what I tried to explain from the link above.
Unsurpassed is the Lord’s way of teaching the Dhamma concerning one’s proper moral conduct. One should be honest and faithful, without deception, chatter, hinting or belittling, not always ready to add gain to gain, but with the sense-doors guarded, moderate in food, a promoter of peace, observant, active and strenuous in effort, a meditator, mindful, with proper conversation, steady-going, resolute and sensible, not hankering after sense pleasures, but mindful and prudent. This is the unsurpassed teaching concerning a person’s proper ethical conduct. - Sampasādanīya, Dīgha Nikāya 28

Caodemarte
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Re: Common thread in violence in Sri Lanka and Mynamar

Post by Caodemarte » Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:32 am

rajitha7 wrote:

....Tamil and Rohingya are not indigenous in either Sri Lanka or Myanmar
- There may have been an insignificant numbers given proximity to India and Bangladesh, however, the bulk of the population are recent migrants that have been imported for work.
- Both populations have been kept isolated i.e. "Exclusive Malabar Region" of Colebrook (refer above) in the respective countries.
- Both populations were used against the native Sinhala and Myanmar people for divide-and-rule policies.
- Post independence both populations are demanding self-determination when it's a right reserved for indigenous people under international law.
Simply and obliviously false on each point. You should definitely change your sources if you are relying on such Internet nonsense. This is worth pointing out because this sort of ahistorical stuff is usually peddled to the unwary to justify murder and pogroms in both countries.

rajitha7
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Re: Common thread in violence in Sri Lanka and Mynamar

Post by rajitha7 » Fri Dec 23, 2016 1:03 am

Caodemarte wrote:Simply and obliviously false on each point.
Well, you said the identical here. So then I took great pains and went into detail using European sources as opposed to Sinhala ones. Now, you are asking me to go through that again!

What is the Dhamma perspective of all this? Both are stories or 'views' that belong in the phenomenal reality. So, in the end, both are fickle. Your consciousness have been conditioned for so long with your view. The moment it has become untenable the denial sets in.

The story given by me stands its ground relative to the phenomenal rules and laws which we both are presently existing. I knew it would come to this. That is why asked for your honesty at the very beginning. Now it's time for you to deliver on that score.
Unsurpassed is the Lord’s way of teaching the Dhamma concerning one’s proper moral conduct. One should be honest and faithful, without deception, chatter, hinting or belittling, not always ready to add gain to gain, but with the sense-doors guarded, moderate in food, a promoter of peace, observant, active and strenuous in effort, a meditator, mindful, with proper conversation, steady-going, resolute and sensible, not hankering after sense pleasures, but mindful and prudent. This is the unsurpassed teaching concerning a person’s proper ethical conduct. - Sampasādanīya, Dīgha Nikāya 28

rajitha7
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Re: Common thread in violence in Sri Lanka and Mynamar

Post by rajitha7 » Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:33 pm

--

In a nutshell -> how the problem evovled.
Unsurpassed is the Lord’s way of teaching the Dhamma concerning one’s proper moral conduct. One should be honest and faithful, without deception, chatter, hinting or belittling, not always ready to add gain to gain, but with the sense-doors guarded, moderate in food, a promoter of peace, observant, active and strenuous in effort, a meditator, mindful, with proper conversation, steady-going, resolute and sensible, not hankering after sense pleasures, but mindful and prudent. This is the unsurpassed teaching concerning a person’s proper ethical conduct. - Sampasādanīya, Dīgha Nikāya 28

Caodemarte
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Re: Common thread in violence in Sri Lanka and Mynamar

Post by Caodemarte » Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:15 pm

rajitha7 wrote:--

In a nutshell -> how the problem evovled.
It is sad to see this strange bigoted misreading and distortion of Sri Lankan history cited again. For those interested, I have already given the standard text of classic Sri Lankan history, but there is an ocean of other respected titles in English alone up until the current day. Or one could just talk to honest Sri Lankan officials who are quite open about the causes of the recent civil war. In short, the idea of carving out of a separate Tamil state out of an already small developing country or of the fringe Tigers (with their cruel and nonsensical ideology) had little to no support among Tamils. A series of pogroms soon convinced many that only the Tigers, nutty and muderous as they were, would protect the lives of Tamils against the mobs while the government could or would not proctect Tamils against the Tigers or the mob. A series of atrocities and "retaliatory" atrocities soon escalated a minor political bandit problem into civil war. For those who care about the country and the fate of Sri Lankan Buddhism ( which is struggling with the racial hatred and violence unleashed on the sangha by extreme nationalist monks) it is crucial to understand what has happened and is happening.

rajitha7
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Re: Common thread in violence in Sri Lanka and Mynamar

Post by rajitha7 » Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:51 pm

Caodemarte wrote:
rajitha7 wrote:--

In a nutshell -> how the problem evovled.
It is sad to see this strange bigoted misreading and distortion of Sri Lankan history cited again.
Please address things I raised. There is no one else here.

I will re-iterate, the Tamil policy formulated in 1949 is here. I have attached the speech in verbatim.
Before the advent of the European nations to Ceylon on the 16th century, the people of this Island had their own governments. But a fact that must give rise to deep thought on our minds is that for a number of centuries preceding the advent of the Portuguese, the people of Ceylon had divided themselves into two nations; the Singhalese speaking nation and the Tamil speaking nation.
..
Because of geographical and other reasons the popu­lation inhabiting the northern parts of the Island must for long have been predominantly Tamil and it must have been difficult for the Singhalese kingdoms in the south to hold sway over the northern areas with its preponderance of Tamil population. Ultimately a natural solution was reached and about the 9th or 10th century the Tamil areas of the north divided themselves and became a separate kingdom, whilst the south of Ceylon remained Singhalese though breaking up at times into two or three kingdoms.

http://dh-web.org/hrsits/SJV1949.html
It was this "Separate Kingdom" idea that eventually became a war of separation. The subsequent declaration of war by the same Tamil party is here. This was declared in 1977.
This Convention directs the Action Committee of the TAMIL UNITED LIBERATION FRONT to formulate a plan of action and launch without undue delay the struggle for winning the sovereignty and freedom of the Tamil Nation;

And this Convention calls upon the Tamil Nation in general and the Tamil youth in particular to come forward to throw themselves fully into the sacred fight for freedom and to flinch not till the goal of a sovereign state of TAMIL EELAM is reached.

http://www.infolanka.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/006217.html
It was peaceful at first I know. However, you are at liberty to reveal an example of real world scenario where asking for a separate state peacefully first then non-peacefully ever lead to a peaceful resolution. It was contested because of reasons outlined ->here.
Unsurpassed is the Lord’s way of teaching the Dhamma concerning one’s proper moral conduct. One should be honest and faithful, without deception, chatter, hinting or belittling, not always ready to add gain to gain, but with the sense-doors guarded, moderate in food, a promoter of peace, observant, active and strenuous in effort, a meditator, mindful, with proper conversation, steady-going, resolute and sensible, not hankering after sense pleasures, but mindful and prudent. This is the unsurpassed teaching concerning a person’s proper ethical conduct. - Sampasādanīya, Dīgha Nikāya 28

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