The biggest butcher in history

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
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Twilight
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Re: The biggest butcher in history

Post by Twilight » Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:39 pm

I do not deny that US is playing realpolitiks just like everybody else. Show me where I have denied that. My point is that the other 2 superpowers are much worse than USA and still it is them you are defending and the US that you are attacking. And you are doing it with articles like that witch claim US is responsible for all wars that ever happened since WW2 including wars in africa or URSS intervention in Hungary :juggling:

By the way, who is doing better ? North or south korea ? Were the americans the bad ones there or china and russia ? Were the americans the ones who impoverished their half of korea and put a brutal dictatorship to rule the place ? Is the US supporting a regime that puts people in labor camps for generations, punishing 3 generations for the deeds of 1 person ? Again, who cares more about their allies: the US or China and Russia ?
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You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
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Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link

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Twilight
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Re: The biggest butcher in history

Post by Twilight » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:01 pm

it's dealing in arms
Again, with who are we comparing USA ? With some sort of deva world ? Even devas wage wars by the way.

But if we are comparing US to non-deva countries from planet earth, well at least they do not have places like Transnistria where a journalist making a documentary can go and buy a missile. Places that are a hotspot for prostitution, drug dealing and especially arms dealing to africa and the middle east. You're telling me USA does not have the higher ground in this one compared to Russia or China ?

I don't understand why, in your view, Russia or China can do whatever they want with zero respect for morality while US has to be better even than deva worlds.
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link

Phena
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Re: The biggest butcher in history

Post by Phena » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:17 pm

Twilight wrote:Nobody is an angel when it comes to foreign policy. All obey realpolitiks. But compared to the only 2 other superpowers, yes the US are the good guys.
Ah, so you do believe America are the "good guys". So where is your evidence of this, because the deaths since WWII from American interventions, wars it has instigated and invasions of other countries suggests otherwise?
Twilight wrote:Probably there are countries better than US in the world but it just so happens that Russia or China are not among them for the simple fact that they are dictatorships
Russia is not a dictatorship. Really twilight, your arguments are puerile and unbalanced. As I pointed out in my last post, you lack credibility because you seem swayed more by propaganda than actual facts.

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Twilight
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Re: The biggest butcher in history

Post by Twilight » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:19 pm

Ah, so you do believe America are the "good guys". So where is your evidence of this, because the deaths since WWII from American interventions, wars it has instigated and invasions of other countries suggests otherwise?
Facts like URSS intervention in Hungary ? :juggling: :juggling: :juggling: :juggling: :juggling: :juggling: :juggling: :juggling:
Russia is not a dictatorship.
No, and no journalist or opposition leaders were ever assassinated after Putin took control :juggling: And Putin can lose his presidency in fair democratic elections any time. It's not like he's there for life :juggling: And it's not like russian propaganda is openly anti-democracy trying to paint it as unstable and prone to leading to civil wars. If they believe in democracy, why are they doing propaganda against it ? They are even doing it in the US on their own TV channel. Do you want youtube clips with debates about democracy vs dictatorship on Russia Today, with RT journalist militating for dictatorship of course ? :juggling:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdGOrWmVMv8
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link

Phena
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Re: The biggest butcher in history

Post by Phena » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:49 pm

Your whole argument is misguided because you think I am defending Russia, China, Nth. Korea, etc but I'm not. I am pointing out, as I did in my first post that the US Has Killed More Than 20 Million People in 37 “Victim Nations” Since World War II.

You have turned this into a comparison with "communist" countries by your own making, and as such have revealed your own rather extreme agenda and seemingly uncritical acceptance of American propaganda.

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Twilight
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Re: The biggest butcher in history

Post by Twilight » Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:01 pm

So all proxy wars that happened during the cold war (afganistan, korea, vietnam) between US and URSS are because of US fault ? Or the random wars in africa or even the URSS intervention in Hungary were actually because of US ?

Why are these wars blamed on USA and not blamed on URSS or somebody else ? How can you possibly make the clame that USA is responsible for all people that ever died in wars after WW2 no matter who was fighting who and where ? As I said, this is 10 times lower level propaganda than Russia Today.

And this topic is about people been butchered back home by their government. URSS has butchered about 30-40 million. China 80 million. USA and western countries simply have not done this. In terms of foreign wars, all countries obey realpolitiks but at least the west is indisputably treating their friends and enemies better than URSS or China.

If you make a claim such as "USA is bad", you have to compare it to something to put it in perspective. You can't compare it to some utopic deva world to make a point US is bad. And as I said, devas wage constant wars too.

PS: If you want to make a case about victims of US, bring some facts about those south american countries that really were the fault of US. I'm sure it would at up to half a million figure in total. But don't bring proxy wars like vietnam, korea, afganistan or wars that US had nothing to do with to make a case about democracy and free market victims.
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link

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Mr Man
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Re: The biggest butcher in history

Post by Mr Man » Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:39 pm

Hi Twilight,
Hope you don't mind me asking. Where are you from? You're not the polish guy are you? In English we normally use USSR rather than URSS.

chownah
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Re: The biggest butcher in history

Post by chownah » Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:51 pm

Phena wrote:
chownah wrote:Twilight did not post anything consistent with your allegations that twilight was saying that the Americans are the good guys and everyone else are the baddies. You are misrepresenting twilight's post.
Please show me a few of twilight's so many factual inaccuracies....and bring me an exact quote from twilight where twilight depicts the Americans are the good guys and everyone else are the baddiesl...I don't think you will find any.
chownah
and although I will not be "bringing" you an "exact quote" as you demand, it is quite obvious that twilight is in denial about America's involvement in the deaths of many while perusing its own self-centered interests.
You can not bring examples of twilight's factual inacccuracies (as you call them) because there aren't any. You have been misrepresenting twilight's posts....and you continue in that twilight has not said anything to indicate denial of america's involvement in the deaths of many while perusing its own self-centered interests.....again you misrepresent his posts. It seems that if someone disagrees with you and you are not able to refute what they say then you misrepresent their post and go on a bashing spree.
chownah

Hello all who read this,
Looking for a bit of a reality check here. Can anyone find alot of factual inaccuracies which phena is suggesting in twilight's posts previous to phena having made the allegations? Can anyone find the text where twilight is in denial about America's involvement in the deaths of many while perusing its own self-centered interests?
Here is all of what twilight posted:
That article lists every war that have happened since WW2 and puts them all on america blame, even the URSS intervention in Hungary and all wars that have been going on in africa.

Now try to put that into perspective. All wars that have been going out after WW2 including wars nobody knows anything about from africa, all just total 20 million casualties. And Mao killed 80 million of his own without a reason. And leftist are trying to make a case for america been evil with an article like that ?
and
Facts like URSS intervention in Hungary ? :juggling: :juggling: :juggling:

There is no conspiracy theory, just lowest level of anti-american propaganda that you can find. It is written for people who do not bother to scroll down and see where they got that 20mil number from. Russia Today is 10 levels of refinement above that kind of propaganda.

As for wars US was actually involved in from the list: Korea, Vietnam, Afganistan etc. were proxy wars between US and URSS during the cold war. Why not blame them all on Russia ?

PS: Just imagine if Russia or China would have been the superpower of the world. I mean they killed 100mil+ in their own countries and could not care less about human rights. You honestly think the world would be a better place with URSS or China in charge ?
that's all of it.....Can anyone find alot of factual inaccuracies which phena is suggesting ? Can anyone find the text where twilight is in denial about America's involvement in the deaths of many while perusing its own self-centered interests? Yeah, I couldn't find it either.

Seems like phena is misrepresenting twilight's posts, doesn't it.

chownah

Phena
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Re: The biggest butcher in history

Post by Phena » Fri Dec 30, 2016 4:59 pm

chownah wrote:
Phena wrote:
chownah wrote:Twilight did not post anything consistent with your allegations that twilight was saying that the Americans are the good guys and everyone else are the baddies. You are misrepresenting twilight's post.
Please show me a few of twilight's so many factual inaccuracies....and bring me an exact quote from twilight where twilight depicts the Americans are the good guys and everyone else are the baddiesl...I don't think you will find any.
chownah
and although I will not be "bringing" you an "exact quote" as you demand, it is quite obvious that twilight is in denial about America's involvement in the deaths of many while perusing its own self-centered interests.
You can not bring examples of twilight's factual inacccuracies (as you call them) because there aren't any. You have been misrepresenting twilight's posts....and you continue in that twilight has not said anything to indicate denial of america's involvement in the deaths of many while perusing its own self-centered interests.....again you misrepresent his posts. It seems that if someone disagrees with you and you are not able to refute what they say then you misrepresent their post and go on a bashing spree.
chownah

Hello all who read this,
Looking for a bit of a reality check here. Can anyone find alot of factual inaccuracies which phena is suggesting in twilight's posts previous to phena having made the allegations? Can anyone find the text where twilight is in denial about America's involvement in the deaths of many while perusing its own self-centered interests?
Here is all of what twilight posted:
That article lists every war that have happened since WW2 and puts them all on america blame, even the URSS intervention in Hungary and all wars that have been going on in africa.

Now try to put that into perspective. All wars that have been going out after WW2 including wars nobody knows anything about from africa, all just total 20 million casualties. And Mao killed 80 million of his own without a reason. And leftist are trying to make a case for america been evil with an article like that ?
and
Facts like URSS intervention in Hungary ? :juggling: :juggling: :juggling:

There is no conspiracy theory, just lowest level of anti-american propaganda that you can find. It is written for people who do not bother to scroll down and see where they got that 20mil number from. Russia Today is 10 levels of refinement above that kind of propaganda.

As for wars US was actually involved in from the list: Korea, Vietnam, Afganistan etc. were proxy wars between US and URSS during the cold war. Why not blame them all on Russia ?

PS: Just imagine if Russia or China would have been the superpower of the world. I mean they killed 100mil+ in their own countries and could not care less about human rights. You honestly think the world would be a better place with URSS or China in charge ?
that's all of it.....Can anyone find alot of factual inaccuracies which phena is suggesting ? Can anyone find the text where twilight is in denial about America's involvement in the deaths of many while perusing its own self-centered interests? Yeah, I couldn't find it either.

Seems like phena is misrepresenting twilight's posts, doesn't it.

chownah
chownah, I am surprised by your rather alarmist response here. It seems you may have some confusion about America's role as "altruistic protectors of the free world" also.

EDIT: I can see you don't agree with my interpretation chownah which is pretty much summarised here US Has Killed More Than 20 Million People in 37 “Victim Nations” Since World War II so you could always set about refuting it yourself.

Here is the Introduction from the link to give you the main thrust:
First published in November 2015

After the catastrophic attacks of September 11 2001 monumental sorrow and a feeling of desperate and understandable anger began to permeate the American psyche. A few people at that time attempted to promote a balanced perspective by pointing out that the United States had also been responsible for causing those same feelings in people in other nations, but they produced hardly a ripple. Although Americans understand in the abstract the wisdom of people around the world empathizing with the suffering of one another, such a reminder of wrongs committed by our nation got little hearing and was soon overshadowed by an accelerated “war on terrorism.”

But we must continue our efforts to develop understanding and compassion in the world. Hopefully, this article will assist in doing that by addressing the question “How many September 11ths has the United States caused in other nations since WWII?” This theme is developed in this report which contains an estimated numbers of such deaths in 37 nations as well as brief explanations of why the U.S. is considered culpable.

The causes of wars are complex. In some instances nations other than the U.S. may have been responsible for more deaths, but if the involvement of our nation appeared to have been a necessary cause of a war or conflict it was considered responsible for the deaths in it. In other words they probably would not have taken place if the U.S. had not used the heavy hand of its power. The military and economic power of the United States was crucial.

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Twilight
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Re: The biggest butcher in history

Post by Twilight » Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:19 pm

chownah, I am surprised by your rather alarmist response here. It seems you may have some confusion about America's role as "altruistic protectors of the free world" also.
Yes, that is pure propaganda. US is no altrustic protector of the world, it's just another power no different than other powers when it comes to realpolitiks. Look no further than recent Iraq, Lybia or Syria to see this is so. What makes them the good guys is the fact that the competition is infinitely worse than USA.

As for the article, I repeat, that is not how you make a case. If the article would have honest intentions it would talk about wars in south america that actually happen to be the responsability of USA. But since the article is pure propaganda, it blames all wars that happened since WW2 on USA. It is not even refined propaganda like that of Russia Today. No, it is the lowest level of propaganda possible. The article is assuming people will not scroll down and see with what kind of wars they got to that 20 million number.

PS: Can you answer a question ? Who were the good guys in Korea ? USA or URSS and China ?
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link

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Mkoll
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Re: The biggest butcher in history

Post by Mkoll » Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:40 pm

I used to read globalresearch.ca back when I was into conspiracy theories. It's very anti-West and its purpose seems to be to spread FUD in Western countries. I wouldn't be surprised if it was being supported by Russian intelligence.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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mikenz66
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Re: The biggest butcher in history

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:32 pm

Mr Man wrote:Hi Twilight,
Hope you don't mind me asking. Where are you from? You're not the polish guy are you? In English we normally use USSR rather than URSS.
Perhaps he has a particularly annoying spell checker turned on...

Image

:coffee:
Mike

chownah
Posts: 7577
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: The biggest butcher in history

Post by chownah » Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:02 am

Phena wrote:
chownah wrote:Twilight did not post anything consistent with your allegations that twilight was saying that the Americans are the good guys and everyone else are the baddies. You are misrepresenting twilight's post.
Please show me a few of twilight's so many factual inaccuracies....and bring me an exact quote from twilight where twilight depicts the Americans are the good guys and everyone else are the baddiesl...I don't think you will find any.
chownah
and although I will not be "bringing" you an "exact quote" as you demand, it is quite obvious that twilight is in denial about America's involvement in the deaths of many while perusing its own self-centered interests.
You can not bring examples of twilight's factual inacccuracies (as you call them) because there aren't any. You have been misrepresenting twilight's posts....and you continue in that twilight has not said anything to indicate denial of america's involvement in the deaths of many while perusing its own self-centered interests.....again you misrepresent his posts. It seems that if someone disagrees with you and you are not able to refute what they say then you misrepresent their post and go on a bashing spree.
chownah

Hello all who read this,
Looking for a bit of a reality check here. Can anyone find alot of factual inaccuracies which phena is suggesting in twilight's posts previous to phena having made the allegations? Can anyone find the text where twilight is in denial about America's involvement in the deaths of many while perusing its own self-centered interests?
Here is all of what twilight posted:
That article lists every war that have happened since WW2 and puts them all on america blame, even the URSS intervention in Hungary and all wars that have been going on in africa.

Now try to put that into perspective. All wars that have been going out after WW2 including wars nobody knows anything about from africa, all just total 20 million casualties. And Mao killed 80 million of his own without a reason. And leftist are trying to make a case for america been evil with an article like that ?
and
Facts like URSS intervention in Hungary ? :juggling: :juggling: :juggling:

There is no conspiracy theory, just lowest level of anti-american propaganda that you can find. It is written for people who do not bother to scroll down and see where they got that 20mil number from. Russia Today is 10 levels of refinement above that kind of propaganda.

As for wars US was actually involved in from the list: Korea, Vietnam, Afganistan etc. were proxy wars between US and URSS during the cold war. Why not blame them all on Russia ?

PS: Just imagine if Russia or China would have been the superpower of the world. I mean they killed 100mil+ in their own countries and could not care less about human rights. You honestly think the world would be a better place with URSS or China in charge ?
[/quote]
that's all of it.....Can anyone find alot of factual inaccuracies which phena is suggesting ? Can anyone find the text where twilight is in denial about America's involvement in the deaths of many while perusing its own self-centered interests? Yeah, I couldn't find it either.

Seems like phena is misrepresenting twilight's posts, doesn't it.

chownah
Hello again everyone,
Time for another reality check. I would be glad if anyone would jump in and judge whether I am viewing this clearly or not.
Phena responds to this post with this: "chownah, I am surprised by your rather alarmist response here." My post is not an alarmist response to anything....it is not alarmist at all.
Phena claims that twilight presents "factual inaccuracies" but then when repeatedly asked to present one she does not....instead phena avoids the issue by raising new issues by misrepresenting a post. Phena claims that twilight is in denial about America's involvement in the deaths of many while perusing its own self-centered interests but when asked to present something where twilight has suggested this phena does not bring it. Now phena has mischaracterized me as being alarmist. :jumping: Phena seems to be really good at the rhetorical methods for avoiding addressing misrepresentation.

Phena....where is all this coming from?
chownah

SarathW
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Re: The biggest butcher in history

Post by SarathW » Sat Dec 31, 2016 4:21 am

The simple fact that you are not put in jail or assassinated if you are a journalist writing such articles about US is making quite a bit of a difference between Us and Russia or China.
Good point I wonder whether we can have this discussion in Russia or China.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
Posts: 10349
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: The biggest butcher in history

Post by SarathW » Sat Dec 31, 2016 4:28 am

Do you want youtube clips with debates about democracy vs dictatorship on Russia Today, with RT journalist militating for dictatorship of course ? :juggling:
Good video.
Sometimes I wonder whether we can elect a dictator via democracy and Visa versa. (ie. Democratic dictator)
:shrug:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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