The biggest butcher in history

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dhammarelax
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The biggest butcher in history

Post by dhammarelax » Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:40 pm

Dear Friends

I have asked myself who of these 3 leaders Mao, Hitler or Stalin are responsible for the deaths of more people:

From http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-enter ... 81630.html:

"Mao's Great Leap Forward 'killed 45 million in four years' Mao Zedong, founder of the People's Republic of China, qualifies as the greatest mass murderer in world history, an expert who had unprecedented access to official Communist Party archives said yesterday.Sep 17, 2010"

https://www.quora.com/How-many-people-did-Hitler-kill

"However he ordered the deaths of 11 million in the death camps, and 6 million Jews included in that total. Hitler wanted to kill far more than that though, and wanted to wipe out every Jew under Nazi control, which he didn't manage, fortunately.
Hitler, Stalin or Mao."

http://www.ibtimes.com/how-many-people- ... ll-1111789

"Dyadkin estimated that the USSR suffered 56 to 62 million "unnatural deaths" during that period, with 34 to 49 million directly linked to Stalin. In “Europe A History,” British historian Norman Davies counted 50 million killed between 1924-53, excluding wartime casualties."

So it seems its between Mao and Stalin. Are there any other illustrious leaders that should be included in the list of honour?

Smile
Dhammarelax
Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5

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Re: The biggest butcher in history

Post by DNS » Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:32 am

I believe it is Mao who was the worst, in terms of most casualties. He is responsible for about 70 million murders.

The most casualties for a specific ideology goes to communism at 100 million. See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_w ... death_toll

SarathW
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Re: The biggest butcher in history

Post by SarathW » Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:39 am

Why we do not talk about who killed the most in 2016.
I suggest we update this post 20th December each year.
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Lucem
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Re: The biggest butcher in history

Post by Lucem » Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:26 am

These guys killed a lot of people but they were babies in terms of evilness compared to Pol Pot. He killed 25% of his population, forced all children to separate from their parents and work in a kind of labour camps. He trained them to kill animals and humans ever since little so they can be more evil when they grow up. He killed all buddhist monks and destroyed all temples. He moved everybody out of the cities and on to a form of communist plantations where they were worked to death. Good thing he only got to govern a small country. And this happened because he wanted to implement Mao's "great leap forward".
Music and radio sets were also banned. It was possible for people to be shot simply for knowing a foreign language, wearing glasses, laughing, or crying. One Khmer slogan ran 'To spare you is no profit, to destroy you is no loss.'
http://www.ppu.org.uk/genocide/g_cambodia1.html

Worth noting Hitler was a socialist too. Nazism means "national socialism".
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Lucem
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Re: The biggest butcher in history

Post by Lucem » Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:55 am

And this is part of the reason why he had such a problem with jews
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chownah
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Re: The biggest butcher in history

Post by chownah » Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:23 am

What a great topic!

I think we should call for a recount as I think some people were counted twice!

I'm sure that there will be alot of good coming from this thread. Can we bring links to war time news footage to document some of the butchering?...how about pictures of dead bodies?...piles of dead bodies?...trenches filled with dead bodies? Are these allowed in this thread?
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Re: The biggest butcher in history

Post by BlackBird » Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:05 am

Was there as much deliberate intent toward Genocide with Mao tho? From my readings it seems to have been that case of everyone being too afraid to disobey which resulted in unrealistic expectations, coupled with the poorly implemented farm collectivization, general incompetency from the middle management, and bad weather and crop growing seasons all coinciding to form one perfect sh*tstorm.

With Stalin the Holodomor was almost certainly intentional. There are a few historians which argue for mismanagement and incompetence but afaik most settle somewhere in the deliberate starvation camp. Then there were the purges by the NKVD which killed a lot of people also.

Everyone knows how evil Hitler was, but he never got to see out his grand plans for wholesale slaughter of 90% of the Slavic people, that would have been hundreds of millions.

If you're looking at absolute body count or perhaps even as a % of the world's population I would think the destruction and slaughter wrecked by the Mongol Empire would exceed all others. That wasn't perpetrated by one man though but several Khans.

metta
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Re: The biggest butcher in history

Post by BlackBird » Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:18 am

Lucem wrote: Worth noting Hitler was a socialist too. Nazism means "national socialism".
You're missing the historical context. The Nazis were trying to appeal to a popular sentiment during the time. Calling themselves socialists was a fiction used to garner support and votes from the public. While there was a true socialist wing of the Nazi party in it's early years, Hitler was never a part of that faction, by the time Hitler assumed dictatorial powers with the enabling act, the Nazi party had purged it's membership of most of it's true socialists, either by demotion into obscurity, or by outright murder as in the case of the Night of the Long Knives. The Nazi party by 1933 was very much a totalitarian right wing party, which had the support and backing of large conglomerate corporations, and aristocrats. In fact Hitler had had many meetings with these key figures of German industry, wealth & the military officer caste to convince them that National Socialism did not mean socialism this turned out to be a key part of the Nazi Party's ascension to absolute power.

If you think of Fascism and Socialism within a venn diagram, there are a number of things which overlap but that does not make them one in the same. Also socialism encompasses a lot of different political philosophies so sure you have authoritarian extreme left - Stalin, and authoritarian extreme right - Hitler, and both implementations of these idealogies end up resembling each other a lot, but only because they are both at the extremes of authoritarianism not because they are both the same in ideology.

There has been a push in recent years by members of the alt. right to reassign the Nazi legacy to the left wing. Various photos of Nazi leaders with quotes cherry picked to smithereens from their historical context are floating about the internet and the goal is to deflect accusations from the left that the alt. right is fascist. (I don't believe as a whole it is, but there are certainly those elements within it). It is a foul piece of revisionism. I say this as a libertarian, not a leftie.
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"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Lucem
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Re: The biggest butcher in history

Post by Lucem » Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:43 pm

You're missing the historical context. The Nazis were trying to appeal to a popular sentiment during the time. Calling themselves socialists was a fiction used to garner support and votes from the public. While there was a true socialist wing of the Nazi party in it's early years, Hitler was never a part of that faction, by the time Hitler assumed dictatorial powers with the enabling act, the Nazi party had purged it's membership of most of it's true socialists, either by demotion into obscurity, or by outright murder as in the case of the Night of the Long Knives. The Nazi party by 1933 was very much a totalitarian right wing party, which had the support and backing of large conglomerate corporations, and aristocrats. In fact Hitler had had many meetings with these key figures of German industry, wealth & the military officer caste to convince them that National Socialism did not mean socialism this turned out to be a key part of the Nazi Party's ascension to absolute power.
I agree. Also that quote by me is from 1927. I know that Hitler attended business school in order to get promoted faster in the army and it is possible that he lost those ideas after understanding economy better. He certainly did not destroy his economy with communist measures. But he did continue to believe that some goods such as food should be free or have fixed prices. From a 2016 point of view he would pass as a quite radical socialist but for him time he was not that radical.
If you think of Fascism and Socialism within a venn diagram, there are a number of things which overlap but that does not make them one in the same. Also socialism encompasses a lot of different political philosophies so sure you have authoritarian extreme left - Stalin, and authoritarian extreme right - Hitler, and both implementations of these idealogies end up resembling each other a lot, but only because they are both at the extremes of authoritarianism not because they are both the same in ideology.
I do not know why fascism is considered right wing in USA. It has nothing to do with economic policy. In fact, most of the past regimes considered fascist would pass as radical socialist by 2016 standards. From what I learned at school, fascism means believing in a strong authoritarian state and has nothing to do with the economy. Anybody can be fascist and communist were the most fascist of all. Am I wrong that "fascism" has nothing to do with the economy and only means believing in a strong state ?
There has been a push in recent years by members of the alt. right to reassign the Nazi legacy to the left wing. Various photos of Nazi leaders with quotes cherry picked to smithereens from their historical context are floating about the internet and the goal is to deflect accusations from the left that the alt. right is fascist. (I don't believe as a whole it is, but there are certainly those elements within it). It is a foul piece of revisionism. I say this as a libertarian, not a leftie.
Well their name was "national socialist workers party" and they pushed for fixed prices or even free goods to a certain extent. They certainly were not communist but to call Hitler right wing is really very inaccurate.

As for the image posted, I don't think it's too accurate. Obama and Romney are up there close to Stalin in terms of authoritarianism when in reality they should be down like Ghandi on that scale. The fact that Obama abused executive orders a little does not make him a dictator. And Fidel Castro lower in terms of authoritarianism than Obama, Romney or Hillary Clinton ? How many people did Obama kill ? How many political adversaries did he put in labor camps or executed ?

chownah
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Re: The biggest butcher in history

Post by chownah » Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:29 pm

Starving is a relatively painless way of dieing so I think that a butcher who let's people starve to death is way more of a humanitrian than a butcher who tortures people to death....and there are probably lots of other nuances which have so far gone undiscovered with regards to butchery. But for now let's stick with the humanitarian aspect of butchery. Let's rank butchers by who is the most humanitarian and who is least. A lot of people under chairman mao starved to death so perhaps he goes on the humanitarian end of the ranking of butchers....what do you think.
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Re: The biggest butcher in history

Post by DNS » Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:41 pm

BlackBird wrote: I say this as a libertarian, not a leftie.
Slightly off-topic, but that's strange that they put Ron Paul more toward authoritarian on that political quadrant scale. Ron Paul is about as Libertarian as one can go, opposed to government intervention and wars of all kinds. I'd say Ron Paul is very close to bottom-right, about as Libertarian as one could go.

Authoritarians (both left and right) are the biggest butchers, biggest war-mongers.

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Re: The biggest butcher in history

Post by BlackBird » Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:16 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:
BlackBird wrote: I say this as a libertarian, not a leftie.
Slightly off-topic, but that's strange that they put Ron Paul more toward authoritarian on that political quadrant scale. Ron Paul is about as Libertarian as one can go, opposed to government intervention and wars of all kinds. I'd say Ron Paul is very close to bottom-right, about as Libertarian as one could go.

Authoritarians (both left and right) are the biggest butchers, biggest war-mongers.
Inevitably it was hard to find one that I didn't think had big objective (or at least subjective) errors. Ron Paul as you point out is the most egregious there. The main thing I wanted was one that A) Didn't equate fascism with authoritarianism (which is a wrong assertion imo, none of the Soviet leaders were fascists, but they were all with the exception of Gorbachev very authoritarian) and B) showed that Hitler and Stalin were not of the same side of the spectrum.

I wish Ron Paul had been young enough to run in 2016, I think the atmosphere was perfect for him. I think he would have got a lot more play than in 08 and 12. Perhaps the Republican primaries would have turned out a lot different too given Paul certainly filled the non establishment niche, and was the intellectual darling of the tea partiers.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

dhammarelax
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Re: The biggest butcher in history

Post by dhammarelax » Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:43 am

chownah wrote:What a great topic!

I think we should call for a recount as I think some people were counted twice!

I'm sure that there will be alot of good coming from this thread. Can we bring links to war time news footage to document some of the butchering?...how about pictures of dead bodies?...piles of dead bodies?...trenches filled with dead bodies? Are these allowed in this thread?
chownah
One good thing about this is to remember that all those people had an "ideology" whatever it was it had one common denominator that is centralizing the power in one person, and when we see that these ideologies are used by people today we can see where they are actually leading.

smile
Dhammarelax
Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5

dhammarelax
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Re: The biggest butcher in history

Post by dhammarelax » Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:42 pm

SarathW wrote:Why we do not talk about who killed the most in 2016.
I suggest we update this post 20th December each year.
:mrgreen:
I think we have white smoke: http://www.worldometers.info/abortions/
Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5

Phena
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Re: The biggest butcher in history

Post by Phena » Thu Dec 29, 2016 2:38 am

Perhaps looking at nation states and the deaths caused by them in modern history adds another perspective. In that case, the US has a lot of blood on its hands too.

US Has Killed More Than 20 Million People in 37 “Victim Nations” Since World War II[

Many of these deaths were from wars/invasions/interventions of very dubious and ill-conceived motives (most often political) such as Vietnam, Iraq, Cuba, El Salvador, Guatemala, Laos, Korea and many more.

Lets also not forget the amount of weapons the US has traded, that have killed many.

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