White American fragility, Asian American Invisibility

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 6461
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: Texas

Re: White American fragility, Asian American Invisibility

Post by Mkoll » Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:36 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Dhammafriend,
dhammafriend wrote:But to treat whole groups of people (Blacks, Asians, Mexicans) as if they are malicious liars is deeply disturbing to me. Thanks you for clarifying where you stand.
Are you insinuating that mkoll said this?
Sure sounds like it. And it is a shameful accusation: I know it's not true of myself certainly, and probably not of anyone who posts on this forum here regularly as I've never seen such an attitude displayed by anyone in my time here.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

User avatar
dhammafriend
Posts: 270
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2010 9:19 am

Re: White American fragility, Asian American Invisibility

Post by dhammafriend » Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:37 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Dhammafriend,
dhammafriend wrote:But to treat whole groups of people (Blacks, Asians, Mexicans) as if they are malicious liars is deeply disturbing to me. Thanks you for clarifying where you stand.
Are you insinuating that mkoll said this?

Who are you actually talking about here?

Metta,
Paul. :)
Hi Paul, he has essentially dismissed the content of the articles (I can only hope he's read them in entirety, but I doubt it) as having ulterior motives. IE, they are not true. So essentially, he is calling them liars. He then implied that since he did not experience this, then their experiences and historical facts are up for debate and dismissal. That's the only conclusions that I can honestly come to, based on what he has written here.
Metta
Dhammafriend

Natthi me saranam annam buddho me saranam varam
For me there is no other refuge, the Buddha is my excellent refuge.
Etena saccavajjena vaddheyyam satthu-sasane
By the utterance of this truth, may I grow in the Master’s Way.

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 20160
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: White American fragility, Asian American Invisibility

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:41 am

Greetings Dhammafriend,

Well, I see nothing in Mkoll's statement that suggests your extrapolation is true, and Mkoll has now clarified the matter from his position.

As such, I think you ought to retract your unfounded allegations, in accordance with Section 2d of the Terms of Service.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16496
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: White American fragility, Asian American Invisibility

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:58 am

Perhaps we could actually have a constructive discussion about some of these issues.

I don't agree with a number of the points made in the articles that dhammafriend posted, but I found those, and the article I linked to by Tara Brach, interesting challenges to my attitudes.

To me, the key challenge is how we feel about our understanding. If we feel that we have the One True Dhamma, and that other groups are inferior, perhaps that needs some careful examination.

I'd be interested to hear about people's actual experiences. One of my experiences is being surprised that some of the Thai people I know, who initially seemed to be just following empty rituals, turned out to have a much deeper practice and experiential understanding. This is probably why I'm quite sympathetic to many of the points made in these articles.

:anjali:
Mike

User avatar
dhammafriend
Posts: 270
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2010 9:19 am

Re: White American fragility, Asian American Invisibility

Post by dhammafriend » Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:05 am

Mkoll wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Dhammafriend,
dhammafriend wrote:But to treat whole groups of people (Blacks, Asians, Mexicans) as if they are malicious liars is deeply disturbing to me. Thanks you for clarifying where you stand.
Are you insinuating that mkoll said this?
Sure sounds like it. And it is a shameful accusation: I know it's not true of myself certainly, and probably not of anyone who posts on this forum here regularly as I've never seen such an attitude displayed by anyone in my time here.

Mkoll, then what are you saying, please clarify for us. I (and the authors of those articles I'm sure) would love to here what you actually think of them and the points raised. The floor is yours.

For the moderators, I can only stand by my interpretation of what Mkoll wrote, I'm sorry but that's where I stand, until I actually get a comment from him that is relevant to the topic and picks up content from the articles, and not passive aggressive assertions.
Metta
Dhammafriend

Natthi me saranam annam buddho me saranam varam
For me there is no other refuge, the Buddha is my excellent refuge.
Etena saccavajjena vaddheyyam satthu-sasane
By the utterance of this truth, may I grow in the Master’s Way.

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 20160
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: White American fragility, Asian American Invisibility

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:14 am

Greetings Dhammafriend,

Having re-read all of Mkoll's posts in this topic, I find the aspersions you made highly uncharitable and completely unfounded... but since you are seeking clarification from Mkoll at this point rather than doubling down on your assertions, I will give you credit to that extent.

Further to Mike's lead, I suggest focusing more on the issues, and less on the allegations and aspersions from here on in...

:focus:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

User avatar
dhammafriend
Posts: 270
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2010 9:19 am

Re: White American fragility, Asian American Invisibility

Post by dhammafriend » Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:26 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Dhammafriend,

Having re-read all of Mkoll's posts in this topic, I find the aspersions you made highly uncharitable and completely unfounded... but since you are seeking clarification from Mkoll at this point rather than doubling down on your assertions, I will give you credit to that extent.

Further to Mike's lead, I suggest focusing more on the issues, and less on the allegations and aspersions from here on in...

:focus:

Metta,
Paul. :)
Paul, I have done nothing but try to keep this on thread track. I started this with a very clear OP. Many came here with hit and run comments, not even remotely bothering to address the content I shared. Will you call them and Mkoll out too? Like I said, I am not in the least ashamed of my assumptions about his comments. Until such time that he clarifies for me what his points actually are regarding the content I shared, I will maintain that position with a clear conscience.
Metta
Dhammafriend

Natthi me saranam annam buddho me saranam varam
For me there is no other refuge, the Buddha is my excellent refuge.
Etena saccavajjena vaddheyyam satthu-sasane
By the utterance of this truth, may I grow in the Master’s Way.

User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 6461
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: Texas

Re: White American fragility, Asian American Invisibility

Post by Mkoll » Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:26 am

dhammafriend wrote:Mkoll, then what are you saying, please clarify for us. I (and the authors of those articles I'm sure) would love to here what you actually think of them and the points raised. The floor is yours.

For the moderators, I can only stand by my interpretation of what Mkoll wrote, I'm sorry but that's where I stand, until I actually get a comment from him that is relevant to the topic and picks up content from the articles, and not passive aggressive assertions.
I'll consider clarifying when you apologize and retract your downright shameful aspersion.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

User avatar
dhammafriend
Posts: 270
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2010 9:19 am

Re: White American fragility, Asian American Invisibility

Post by dhammafriend » Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:58 am

Mkoll wrote:
dhammafriend wrote:Mkoll, then what are you saying, please clarify for us. I (and the authors of those articles I'm sure) would love to here what you actually think of them and the points raised. The floor is yours.

For the moderators, I can only stand by my interpretation of what Mkoll wrote, I'm sorry but that's where I stand, until I actually get a comment from him that is relevant to the topic and picks up content from the articles, and not passive aggressive assertions.
I'll consider clarifying when you apologize and retract your downright shameful aspersion.

Actually, you have 2 options, 1) actually deal with content shared and where you stand or 2) leave this thread. That's it, I'm sorry Mkoll.
Metta
Dhammafriend

Natthi me saranam annam buddho me saranam varam
For me there is no other refuge, the Buddha is my excellent refuge.
Etena saccavajjena vaddheyyam satthu-sasane
By the utterance of this truth, may I grow in the Master’s Way.

User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 6461
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: Texas

Re: White American fragility, Asian American Invisibility

Post by Mkoll » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:19 am

dhammafriend wrote:
Mkoll wrote:
dhammafriend wrote:Mkoll, then what are you saying, please clarify for us. I (and the authors of those articles I'm sure) would love to here what you actually think of them and the points raised. The floor is yours.

For the moderators, I can only stand by my interpretation of what Mkoll wrote, I'm sorry but that's where I stand, until I actually get a comment from him that is relevant to the topic and picks up content from the articles, and not passive aggressive assertions.
I'll consider clarifying when you apologize and retract your downright shameful aspersion.

Actually, you have 2 options, 1) actually deal with content shared and where you stand or 2) leave this thread. That's it, I'm sorry Mkoll.
Your shameful aspersion and further unwillingness to apologize for it when asked by the one you've attacked speaks volumes. Oh well, live and let live. I do sincerely hope you don't treat people like this IRL and if you do, you're working on not doing so.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

chownah
Posts: 7596
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: White American fragility, Asian American Invisibility

Post by chownah » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:22 am

dhammafriend wrote:
chownah wrote:If the two articles presented in the original post are taken to be accurate depictions of what buddhism in the usa has become then american buddhism is really really screwed up. I don't really know because I have never knowingly interacted with american buddhists.....but if I take the two articles as being accurate depictions (which, actually, don't) then it is best to stay as far away as possible from all forms of buddhism in the usa. Really, the picture painted is disgusting....why would anyone hang out with any of these people?
Of course maybe the articles are gross exagerations which came from two authors extrapolating their insecurities and angst onto the entire population.
chownah
So essentially Asian Americans who speak on these issues, are disgusting, insecure, angst ridden (all your words) liars.

Thank you for taking the time to read the article.

Moderators, please PM if you have issues with this post. Thank you.
Please read carefully what I said. Most importantly read where I said that I really don't know what the condition of american buddhism is.....but I will say now that my uninformed opinion is that both article as are gross exagerations and it seems to me that it is very possible that these articles are based in insecurity with ones own practice and personal angst.....but I don't know for sure.
AND THIS IS IMPORTANT....I HAVE NOT MADE ANY STATEMENTS ABOUT "ASIAN AMERICANS".....NO STATEMENT WHATSOEVER. IT REALLY LOOKS LIKE YOU ARE THE ONE TRYING TO INJECT RACIAL DISCRIMINATION INTO MY POST. I HAVE NOT SAID ANYTHING VERY NICE ABOUT ANYONE WITHOUT REGARD TO RACE OR CONTINENT OF ORIGIN. Your insinuations of me being racist in my post is ...(fill in the blank)..
chownah
p.s. peace bro. As the buddha taught, "do not be negligent of discernment, guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm"..
chownah

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 20160
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: White American fragility, Asian American Invisibility

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:25 am

Greetings Dhammafriend,

Putting away my admin hat for a moment, I want to ask you something in my regular capacity as a member...

Earlier, Mkoll identified as Asian-American. I'm curious as to why you didn't wish Mkoll to have the opportunity to share experiences here in this topic as an Asian-American Buddhist? Surely such experiences would be relevant to exploring how feelings or perceptions of "invisibility" could be surmounted? There may be something in such accounts that someone else could learn something helpful from... and given your earlier comments regarding erasure, I wouldn't like to feel as if you were invalidating Mkoll's experiences just because they are diverse with respect to your own, or those in the aforementioned publications.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

Buddha Vacana
Posts: 607
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:16 am

Re: White American fragility, Asian American Invisibility

Post by Buddha Vacana » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:40 am

It seems to me that both in the matters discussed in the articles and the content of this thread, the core problem is stereotyping, in other words conflating various things, putting people into boxes with sets of predetermined characteristics like "immigrant", "Asian", "person of color", "white supremacist", "racist" and so on.

Even the articles are their own type of stereotyping, because they tend to generalize the experience of certain people. Mkoll said it does not reflect his own experience. A certain degree of stereotyping is actually unavoidable in any kind of human communication. Either you make generalizations and you express a certain set of views, or you don't, in which case all you can do is speak about your own experience, and report what you have heard from others. I think it's not realistic nor intellectually honest to pretend knowing it all.

User avatar
dhammafriend
Posts: 270
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2010 9:19 am

Re: White American fragility, Asian American Invisibility

Post by dhammafriend » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:17 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Dhammafriend,

Putting away my admin hat for a moment, I want to ask you something in my regular capacity as a member...

Earlier, Mkoll identified as Asian-American. I'm curious as to why you didn't wish Mkoll to have the opportunity to share experiences here in this topic as an Asian-American Buddhist? Surely such experiences would be relevant to exploring how feelings or perceptions of "invisibility" could be surmounted? There may be something in such accounts that someone else could learn something helpful from... and given your earlier comments regarding erasure, I wouldn't like to feel as if you were invalidating Mkoll's experiences just because they are diverse with respect to your own, or those in the aforementioned publications.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Sigh, Paul, please read my OP. It's pretty clear what I am asking. There is a difference between excluding and erasing. We exclude when we focus on one subject to the exclusion of others. This does not constitute erasure. His experience is valid, but, his experience cannot invalidate that of the authors. If he wants to start a thread about how Asian American Buddhists feature centrally and are not racially stereotyped, and erased out of American Buddhism, he is free to do so. With some proof of course.
Metta
Dhammafriend

Natthi me saranam annam buddho me saranam varam
For me there is no other refuge, the Buddha is my excellent refuge.
Etena saccavajjena vaddheyyam satthu-sasane
By the utterance of this truth, may I grow in the Master’s Way.

User avatar
dhammafriend
Posts: 270
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2010 9:19 am

Re: White American fragility, Asian American Invisibility

Post by dhammafriend » Thu Dec 15, 2016 1:51 pm

Buddha Vacana wrote:It seems to me that both in the matters discussed in the articles and the content of this thread, the core problem is stereotyping, in other words conflating various things, putting people into boxes with sets of predetermined characteristics like "immigrant", "Asian", "person of color", "white supremacist", "racist" and so on.

Even the articles are their own type of stereotyping, because they tend to generalize the experience of certain people. Mkoll said it does not reflect his own experience. A certain degree of stereotyping is actually unavoidable in any kind of human communication. Either you make generalizations and you express a certain set of views, or you don't, in which case all you can do is speak about your own experience, and report what you have heard from others. I think it's not realistic nor intellectually honest to pretend knowing it all.
A generalisation is not a stereotype. We have to generalise when we speak or write in English. It's part of our language structure. When we say notions of white supremacy and anti blackness are pervasive in the US, that does not mean that all 'white' people in the states are actively racist.
That does not even mean that only 'white' groups uphold white supremacy. Even other groups internalise and perpetuate that rhetoric. So it's far more nuanced than that.

Calling American culture white supremacist and anti black is not a stereotype, it's a generalisation grounded in fact. Chattel slavery, Native American genocide (past and present), Jim Crow, Red Lining, Sundown Towns, lynchings (past and present), the school-to-prison pipeline etc.
Metta
Dhammafriend

Natthi me saranam annam buddho me saranam varam
For me there is no other refuge, the Buddha is my excellent refuge.
Etena saccavajjena vaddheyyam satthu-sasane
By the utterance of this truth, may I grow in the Master’s Way.

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests