What does the "Red Pill" mean

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srivijaya
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Re: What does the "Red Pill" mean

Post by srivijaya » Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:50 am

Mr Man wrote:The article, that is linked to, is deeply misogynistic and the data is being used to justify misogyny. That is the bottom line.
Correct.

It's about as "objective" as early research into the cranial dimensions of various races.

Wondering if these gentlemen are Red Pill readers:
http://www.euronews.com/2016/12/12/poli ... way-stairs

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Mkoll
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Re: What does the "Red Pill" mean

Post by Mkoll » Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:44 pm

dhammarelax wrote:Shit tests: " A test that a girl performs on a male by saying or doing something to judge the reaction or response from him."

I have seen this happen many times. I think also children tend to test the limits.
Children definitely do this, starting at a certain age. I've forgotten the exact time. It's a well-known phenomenon in developmental psychology.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Cittasanto
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Re: What does the "Red Pill" mean

Post by Cittasanto » Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:47 pm

Mr Man wrote:The article, that is linked to, is deeply misogynistic and the data is being used to justify misogyny. That is the bottom line.
it doesn't stop it having a basis, as the paper linked to in the paper showed.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Mr Man
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Re: What does the "Red Pill" mean

Post by Mr Man » Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:48 pm

Cittasanto wrote:
Mr Man wrote:The article, that is linked to, is deeply misogynistic and the data is being used to justify misogyny. That is the bottom line.
it doesn't stop it having a basis, as the paper linked to in the paper showed.
Not sure what you mean by a basis. The article is written around some research but that does not mean it has a "basis"
"Yet, few of them acknowledge the fact that one of these spheres, the government (the institution granting them rights), is entirely supported by male taxpayers"
or
"Put another way, the government (or men) is literally paying women to be alive."


(both from the first paragraph) are clearly ridiculous.

I have no further interest in discussing that particular document. If you approve of it so be it.

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Cittasanto
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Re: What does the "Red Pill" mean

Post by Cittasanto » Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:34 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:
Mr Man wrote:The article, that is linked to, is deeply misogynistic and the data is being used to justify misogyny. That is the bottom line.
it doesn't stop it having a basis, as the paper linked to in the paper showed.
Not sure what you mean by a basis. The article is written around some research but that does not mean it has a "basis"
"Yet, few of them acknowledge the fact that one of these spheres, the government (the institution granting them rights), is entirely supported by male taxpayers"
or
"Put another way, the government (or men) is literally paying women to be alive."


(both from the first paragraph) are clearly ridiculous.

I have no further interest in discussing that particular document. If you approve of it so be it.
recognizing it has something which it can point to and demonstrate a claim, and approving of something are two different things.
But don't try to refute the basis of the claim and tackle the low lying fruit.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Mr Man
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Re: What does the "Red Pill" mean

Post by Mr Man » Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:29 pm

Cittasanto wrote: recognizing it has something which it can point to and demonstrate a claim, and approving of something are two different things.
But don't try to refute the basis of the claim and tackle the low lying fruit.
What you are referring to as the "basis" does not demonstrate the claim, which was "women do not pay taxes (ever)"? That claim is completely incorrect. The claim is false. As are the two claims in my previous post. I am not tackling "low lying fruit". The claim is ridiculous, however you try and work it or re-arrange it.

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Re: What does the "Red Pill" mean

Post by Cittasanto » Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:26 am

Mr Man wrote:
Cittasanto wrote: recognizing it has something which it can point to and demonstrate a claim, and approving of something are two different things.
But don't try to refute the basis of the claim and tackle the low lying fruit.
What you are referring to as the "basis" does not demonstrate the claim, which was "women do not pay taxes (ever)"? That claim is completely incorrect. The claim is false. As are the two claims in my previous post. I am not tackling "low lying fruit". The claim is ridiculous, however you try and work it or re-arrange it.
and I pointed that out, do look at my response.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Mr Man
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Re: What does the "Red Pill" mean

Post by Mr Man » Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:20 am

Cittasanto wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
Cittasanto wrote: recognizing it has something which it can point to and demonstrate a claim, and approving of something are two different things.
But don't try to refute the basis of the claim and tackle the low lying fruit.
What you are referring to as the "basis" does not demonstrate the claim, which was "women do not pay taxes (ever)"? That claim is completely incorrect. The claim is false. As are the two claims in my previous post. I am not tackling "low lying fruit". The claim is ridiculous, however you try and work it or re-arrange it.
and I pointed that out, do look at my response.
I did look at all your responses.

dhammarelax
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Re: What does the "Red Pill" mean

Post by dhammarelax » Sun Dec 18, 2016 4:18 pm

srivijaya wrote:
dhammarelax wrote:
In a now classical approach one would ask, are there any Sutta refferences to this?

Smile
Dhammarelax
I appreciate the humour, thought I think a lot of suttas deal with this in one way or another. I think that the peer pressure on young people of both genders has been magnified in recent years. Social media platforms and a pervasive cult of celebrity contribute, so that every aspect of a person is discussed, heightened, observed and emphasised way beyond where it should (healthily) be. I guess 'the underlying conceit to self' is constantly fed in a manner which could not have been envisaged years ago. The Red Pill etc are part of this overall strudel - feeding Dukkha - providing a quick-fix solution for some isolated young men to vent off and develop a whole world view around their resentment.

This isn't in any way to detract from the genuine pain that some people feel. The college I work for has strategies in place to deal with suicides of young people of both genders, which is disturbing and tragic. My wife teaches school kids who are on medication for depression - kids who on the face of it seem confident - many of whom also self-harm. There is a genuine displacement of people in the industrialised world who question their place (or even if they have one) in life and it's a massive issue that modern brand-slave consumerism and snappy-slogan politics is not up to addressing.

Buddha located the core of this pain, though admittedly for non-Buddhists that may seem like confirmation bias, it isn't. Which comes back around to the suttas I guess.

Sorry, I know that's not what you meant but... :shrug:
I found a few:

AN 2.61(10)

"Bhikkhus, women die unsatisfied and discontent in two things.
What two? Sexual intercourse and giving birth. Women die
unsatisfied and discontent in these two things."

AN 3.129 (7) Anuruddha (1)

"Then the Venerable Anuruddha approached the Blessed One,
paid homage to him, sat down to one side, and said: "Now,
Bhante, with the di vine eye, which is purified and surpasses
the human, I see that women, with the breakup of the body,
after death, are mostly reborn in the plane of misery, in a bad
destination, in the lower world, in hell. What qualities does a
woman possess on account of which, with the breakup of the
body, after death, she is reborn in the plane of- misery, in a bad
destination, in the lower world, in hell?"
"When she possesses three qualities, Anuruddha, with the
breakup of the body, after death, a woman is reborn in the
plane of misery, in a bad destination, in the lower world, in
hell. What three?
(1) "Here, Anuruddha, in the morning a woman dwells at
home with a mind obsessed by the stain of miserliness. (2) At
midday she dwells at home with a mind obsessed by envy. (3)
And in the evening she dwells at home with a mind obsessed by
sensual lust. When she possesses these three qualities, with the
breakup of the body, after death, a woman is reborn in the plane'
of misery, in a bad destination, in the lower world, in hell."

AN 3.131 (9) Concealed

"Bhikkhus, there are these three things that flou rish when conc
e a led /n o t when exposed. What three? (I ) Women flourish
when concealed, not when exposed."

AN 5.80 (10) Kamboja

On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Kosambl
in Ghosita's Park. Then the Venerable Ananda approached
the Blessed One, paid homage to him, sat down to one side,
and said: "Bhante, why is it that women do not sit in council, or engage
in business, or go to Kamboja?"
"Ananda, women are prone to anger; women are envious; [83]
women are miserly; women are unwise. This is why women do
not sit in council, engage in business, or go to Kamboja."
"Bhikkhus, while walking, a woman obsesses the mind
of a man; while s tan d in g . . . while sitting .... while lying
down . . . while laughing . . . while speaking . . . while singing
. : . while crying a woman obsesses the mind of a man. When
swollen,1052 too, a woman obsesses the mind of a man. Even
when dead, a woman obsesses the mind of a man. If, bhikkhus,
one could rightly say of anything: 'Entirely a snare of M a ra / it
is precisely of women that one could say this."1053 [69]
One might talk with a murderous foe,
one might talk with an evil spirit,
one might even approach a viper
whose bite means certain death;
but with a woman, one to one,
one should never talk.
They bind one whose mind is muddled
with a glance and a smile,
with their dress in disarray,
and with gentle speech.
It is not safe to approach such a person
though she is swollen and dead.
These five objects of sensual pleasure
are seen in a woman's body:
forms, sounds, tastes, and odours,
and also delightful touches.

Smile
Dhammarelax
Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5

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Mr Man
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Re: What does the "Red Pill" mean

Post by Mr Man » Sun Dec 18, 2016 6:43 pm

dhammarelax wrote: I found a few:
You found a few what?

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Re: What does the "Red Pill" mean

Post by dhammarelax » Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:39 pm

Mr Man wrote:
dhammarelax wrote: I found a few:
You found a few what?
The Suttas that I quoted show the relation of "The Red Pill" with Buddhism and by extension to our community, while TRP (Reddit) has as an objective: "The Red Pill: Discussion of sexual strategy in a culture increasingly lacking a positive identity for men. " in other words how to have (more) sexual intercourse, the Buddha explicitly rejected the wholesomeness of this practice for all the monks and nuns, I underline that because its easy to think that those statements made by the Blessed one are sexist, they are not, as nowhere its mentioned that men don’t exhibit the same or worst traits than women. When the Buddha rejects the daughter of a peasant saying I will not touch that body full of urine, is saying that for both men and women. Myself I have had conversations with older men who went on the tenor of them having an insatiable lust, statements like "once you cannot get it up its all finished", which for me proves that men might also die sexually unsatisfied. I have seen many older men to hire ladies as maids who eventually end up as sexual partners, for me this is scandalous. Neither because it involves an older man and a younger woman nor because its a form of prostitution but because it means you have lived many years and your wisdom gives you the same behaviour that you had when you were young. A wasted life.

Gaining exposure to the theory of TRP is a useful exercise because it justifies and amplifies my will to adhere to the strictest Buddhist standards, consider for example:

Hypergamy: The instinctual urge to find the best possible mate. Translated as both men and women are looking for a relation above their own standing. What I find particularly disgusting about this unnoble truth is that it objectifies people. I am not in a relation with a human being I am in a relation with a banker that earns this much and drives this car. Or I am in a relation with a tall sexy blond rich lady. The alarming issue is the word "instinct" it implies natural, this is the way things are, unfortunately for the most this is correct and I have witnessed it, I remember a social meeting I had with a lady and a man, the man declared himself a graduate from a reputed school, that same moment you could see the sexual desire arise in the lady. I could see that the man was lying. Believe me this shameful behaviour is the norm. The other day I was giving a Dhamma talk, I mentioned that before I started practicing Buddhism full time I held a certain position in the business world. Guess what happened to one of the ladies attending?
If you are looking to follow the noble path of the Buddha you should proudly avoid relations altogether as they are governed by this sad realities.

Smile
Dhammarelax
Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5

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Mr Man
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Re: What does the "Red Pill" mean

Post by Mr Man » Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:21 pm

dhammarelax wrote:
The Suttas that I quoted show the relation of "The Red Pill" with Buddhism and by extension to our community, while TRP (Reddit) has as an objective: "The Red Pill: Discussion of sexual strategy in a culture increasingly lacking a positive identity for men. " in other words how to have (more) sexual intercourse, the Buddha explicitly rejected the wholesomeness of this practice for all the monks and nuns, I underline that because its easy to think that those statements made by the Blessed one are sexist, they are not, as nowhere its mentioned that men don’t exhibit the same or worst traits than women. When the Buddha rejects the daughter of a peasant saying I will not touch that body full of urine, is saying that for both men and women. Myself I have had conversations with older men who went on the tenor of them having an insatiable lust, statements like "once you cannot get it up its all finished", which for me proves that men might also die sexually unsatisfied. I have seen many older men to hire ladies as maids who eventually end up as sexual partners, for me this is scandalous. Neither because it involves an older man and a younger woman nor because its a form of prostitution but because it means you have lived many years and your wisdom gives you the same behaviour that you had when you were young. A wasted life.

Gaining exposure to the theory of TRP is a useful exercise because it justifies and amplifies my will to adhere to the strictest Buddhist standards, consider for example:

Hypergamy: The instinctual urge to find the best possible mate. Translated as both men and women are looking for a relation above their own standing. What I find particularly disgusting about this unnoble truth is that it objectifies people. I am not in a relation with a human being I am in a relation with a banker that earns this much and drives this car. Or I am in a relation with a tall sexy blond rich lady. The alarming issue is the word "instinct" it implies natural, this is the way things are, unfortunately for the most this is correct and I have witnessed it, I remember a social meeting I had with a lady and a man, the man declared himself a graduate from a reputed school, that same moment you could see the sexual desire arise in the lady. I could see that the man was lying. Believe me this shameful behaviour is the norm. The other day I was giving a Dhamma talk, I mentioned that before I started practicing Buddhism full time I held a certain position in the business world. Guess what happened to one of the ladies attending?
If you are looking to follow the noble path of the Buddha you should proudly avoid relations altogether as they are governed by this sad realities.

Smile
Dhammarelax
I'm still not seeing it Dhammarelax. Are you saying that TRP (Reddit) shows us the opposite of the Buddha's teachings?

Your definition of Hypergamy does not seem to match the dictionaries. I'm not sure that you can call it a "truth".

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Re: What does the "Red Pill" mean

Post by dhammarelax » Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:23 pm

Mr Man wrote:
dhammarelax wrote:
The Suttas that I quoted show the relation of "The Red Pill" with Buddhism and by extension to our community, while TRP (Reddit) has as an objective: "The Red Pill: Discussion of sexual strategy in a culture increasingly lacking a positive identity for men. " in other words how to have (more) sexual intercourse, the Buddha explicitly rejected the wholesomeness of this practice for all the monks and nuns, I underline that because its easy to think that those statements made by the Blessed one are sexist, they are not, as nowhere its mentioned that men don’t exhibit the same or worst traits than women. When the Buddha rejects the daughter of a peasant saying I will not touch that body full of urine, is saying that for both men and women. Myself I have had conversations with older men who went on the tenor of them having an insatiable lust, statements like "once you cannot get it up its all finished", which for me proves that men might also die sexually unsatisfied. I have seen many older men to hire ladies as maids who eventually end up as sexual partners, for me this is scandalous. Neither because it involves an older man and a younger woman nor because its a form of prostitution but because it means you have lived many years and your wisdom gives you the same behaviour that you had when you were young. A wasted life.

Gaining exposure to the theory of TRP is a useful exercise because it justifies and amplifies my will to adhere to the strictest Buddhist standards, consider for example:

Hypergamy: The instinctual urge to find the best possible mate. Translated as both men and women are looking for a relation above their own standing. What I find particularly disgusting about this unnoble truth is that it objectifies people. I am not in a relation with a human being I am in a relation with a banker that earns this much and drives this car. Or I am in a relation with a tall sexy blond rich lady. The alarming issue is the word "instinct" it implies natural, this is the way things are, unfortunately for the most this is correct and I have witnessed it, I remember a social meeting I had with a lady and a man, the man declared himself a graduate from a reputed school, that same moment you could see the sexual desire arise in the lady. I could see that the man was lying. Believe me this shameful behaviour is the norm. The other day I was giving a Dhamma talk, I mentioned that before I started practicing Buddhism full time I held a certain position in the business world. Guess what happened to one of the ladies attending?
If you are looking to follow the noble path of the Buddha you should proudly avoid relations altogether as they are governed by this sad realities.

Smile
Dhammarelax
I'm still not seeing it Dhammarelax. Are you saying that TRP (Reddit) shows us the opposite of the Buddha's teachings?

Your definition of Hypergamy does not seem to match the dictionaries. I'm not sure that you can call it a "truth".
It certainly does because this whole "Red Pill" theory at least from the Reddit forum has a target, the one I quoted above: "The Red Pill: Discussion of sexual strategy in a culture increasingly lacking a positive identity for men. " They are using the knowledge in the wrong way instead of saying as the Buddha does, women and men are dangerous the best life style is to be celibate, they are saying women and men are dangerous but there is a way that you can use this knowledge in your advantage to have plenty of sexual intercourse without taking responsibility for any consequences (eg abortions).

The definition of Hypergamy that I gave is the one pertinent to the discussion because it relates to the reddit forum (I haven’t and probably will not see the movie). I find it to be accurate, I have witnessed it many times and you can also investigate it.

This knowledge is particularly useful from the Buddhas point of view, for example if I am an overweight lay woman that feels sad because men are not interested in me, if I know and understand what man are looking in a relation then I should not be sad because its anyhow unwholesome and impermanent look at the phenomenon called "middle life crisis", what basically means is that once the beauty of the lady is gone, men will look for younger women, that’s it. Ass tits face, most of the unlearned garden variety men out there act this way, never mind the damage to the kids. It’s an instinct, what happens if you see a beautiful young lady naked? Sexual desire arises, what happens if you see an old lady naked, disgust arises. Why should a woman fall a victim and be the tool for lust satisfaction? For the sake of procreation? The best option is to avoid sexual intercourse.

Also that is true for men, what are most women looking in men? Status, they want to be with a superior specimen, when men lose their superiority women look elsewhere for satisfaction, never mind the damage to the kids, why would men be victims of this? For the sake of satisfying thier own lust? If I am a male that happens to by unlucky with ladies and has no sex, modern culture and society will depict me as a loser, a total loser. When as a matter of fact I am winner, a total winner. Realizing that women are mainly looking for status is very liberating because its impersonal, status arises and goes away, its not me not mine not myself, as a matter of fact status is many times straight off the result of unwholesome activities, to get status and as a consequence to get the attention of the ladies, men commit all kinds of atrocities and face higher chances of going to hell in a future rebirth. The best option is to avoid sexual intercourse.

Both extremes of the gender dynamic are at the end of the day on the very same Maras boat, they both just want to have more sexual intercourse without baring the consequences. Check for example this article in a feminist site. http://feministing.com/2016/12/06/sex-p ... nny-leone/.
Misoginists and misandrist have in common the word hate, they are haters, they hate each other but they want to f... each other to oblivion, does that make sense? No, it does not, this is why a lot of the sexual intercourse it ends up in suffering. I remember a statistic that in America 45% of the murders of women are perpetrated by their sexual partner. Why? Sex is not the wholesome innocent pastime that modern culture likes us to think. Even if the "leak" of the sex tape is the new way to easy stardom? Yes even if the superstars are doing it and broadcasting it.
My thesis is that TRP concepts are by large correct but they are used contrary to the Buddhas teachings and because of that they lead to more suffering, I argue that TRP concepts should be used in the right way realize of all the filth and take best way of the true men and true women that is no sexual intercourse.


Smile
Dhammarelax
Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5

dhammarelax
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Re: What does the "Red Pill" mean

Post by dhammarelax » Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:20 pm

Here is one more example of how all this stuff should motivate us to avoid sexual intercourse: (from https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/com ... s_correct/:)
Summary:

Taking a look at anonymous statistics from online sex questionnaire www.weshouldtryit.com proves that TRP is correct, women do want more dominance from their man, and they do want to do kinky/dirty stuff.

Body:

I remember myself, back when I was BP, reading advice like that which can be encountered in the great book "Sex God Method". It made no sense. Women, want to be "f***"? Panties torn to pieces, hair pulled, what kind of monster would do that? Surely that is gross!

Later, when I was unplugging, and actually read SGM, and was ready to accept it, still it was hard to actually start acting like the book tells you to. Manhandle her, talk dirty to her, treat her like "a piece of meat", take full control in the bedroom, be rough etc. Doubts that "she's not like that" would still make it hard to act on the advice. And of course, we all know that publicly available information tells men that women need someone who "makes love to them", respects them, treats them as equals even in bed, and shit like that.

Well, some years later after I've solved that for myself, I've come across a resource at www.weshouldtryit.com - a questionnaire for couples that want to "try something new". It's not the only one of it's kind, but this one has open statistics. And looking at the female statistics for "Yes" and "More" categories (meaning, respondee said "yes I want it" or "I want more of it" to the idea) is quite revealing.

Here's what's in the Top 20:

have partner be more vocal
have partner be rougher to me in sex
have partner talk dirtier to me

have my hair pulled by partner

be blindfolded by partner

be tied down or otherwise restrained by partner

be spanked by partner's hand

wake partner up with sex or oral sex

have sex in a car

have sex in the woods or in a park

be fondled by partner in a public setting (restaurant/theater)

Conclusion:

I think this could be valuable to any person still in the process of unplugging, previously indoctrinated in the BP lies, told that women are innocent angelic creatures and want hearts and flowers, care and respect. Another definite proof that RP assessment of female desires is correct, and that counter to all that society and feminism tells you, women do actually desire a more dominant and masculine man.
Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5

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Mr Man
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Re: What does the "Red Pill" mean

Post by Mr Man » Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:11 pm

Hi Dhammarelax
Okay so you are saying that, in your opinion, the perception of woman that is perpetuated and prevalent within the Red Pill community is accurate?

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