Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

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Mr Man
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Post by Mr Man » Wed Nov 23, 2016 8:08 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
The labelling of foreign ideologies as "religious" is a strategy of secular humanism and radical atheism to discredit opposing viewpoints and metaphysics.
Hmm. By foreign ideologies do you mean religions? No doubt different people and societies have different ideas of what religions are but I imagine (not sure though) that foreign ideologies were being defined as "religious" before the emergence secular humanism and radical atheism.

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robertk
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Post by robertk » Wed Nov 23, 2016 8:21 am

cjmacie wrote: b) The story (somewhere in the Pali Canon) of a man, woman with their infant crossing a desert or such, running out of food, and feeding on the baby as the least of the presenting evils and the one allowing for the survival of the species, so to speak -- they could, if surviving, have further children. Again, if my memory serves, the Buddha did not condemn that. (Could be wrong on that, where assuredly it will be promptly corrected here.)
the story was given as an example of how a bhikkhu should eat food- merely to stay alive, not for pleasure or for developing an attractive body. Nothing about additional children :

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"And how is physical food to be regarded? Suppose a couple, husband & wife, taking meager provisions, were to travel through a desert. With them would be their only baby son, dear & appealing. Then the meager provisions of the couple going through the desert would be used up & depleted while there was still a stretch of the desert yet to be crossed. The thought would occur to them, 'Our meager provisions are used up & depleted while there is still a stretch of this desert yet to be crossed. What if we were to kill this only baby son of ours, dear & appealing, and make dried meat & jerky. That way — chewing on the flesh of our son — at least the two of us would make it through this desert. Otherwise, all three of us would perish.' So they would kill their only baby son, loved & endearing, and make dried meat & jerky. Chewing on the flesh of their son, they would make it through the desert. While eating the flesh of their only son, they would beat their breasts, [crying,] 'Where have you gone, our only baby son? Where have you gone, our only baby son?' Now what do you think, monks: Would that couple eat that food playfully or for intoxication, or for putting on bulk, or for beautification?"

"No, lord."

"Wouldn't they eat that food simply for the sake of making it through that desert?"

"Yes, lord."

"In the same way, I tell you, is the nutriment of physical food to be regarded

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Mr Man
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Post by Mr Man » Wed Nov 23, 2016 8:25 am

robertk wrote: yes, and Bodhi himself makes clear (in his comments to the article) that " I believe that the life-process begins when a stream of consciousness coming from a deceased being “connects” with the newly fertilized ovum. Thus I consider the embryo to be a living being, a potential human being, and on these grounds I hold that a woman who adheres to the Buddha’s teaching and wants to live in accordance with its ethical code should not have an abortion "

so he is not in accord with the thinking that life magically begins only after the baby leaves the womb.
Life does have a fairly broad meaning. I don't think there are many that would argue that life magically begins after birth. That life as a human begins after birth would be a more common opinion though (isn't that what Christians believe?).

We use old ideas to address modern problems but the catch is we use modern minds to try and interpret old ideas.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:54 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:
The labelling of foreign ideologies as "religious" is a strategy of secular humanism and radical atheism to discredit opposing viewpoints and metaphysics.
Hmm. By foreign ideologies do you mean religions? No doubt different people and societies have different ideas of what religions are but I imagine (not sure though) that foreign ideologies were being defined as "religious" before the emergence secular humanism and radical atheism.
Yes, but these groups have an entirely new definition of what "religious" means.

If you look at what I was responding to, it was the new secularist worldview, where one is defined solely by one's ability to ascent to beliefs and make decisions, and where a fetus is not really a "human being" if it lacks experience, memory, etc. One of the strategies of the secularist worldview, in asserting itself, is to set up nonreligious foreign ideologies as being suddenly "religious". This means that they can be excluded from sphere of "things that are reasonable".

I digress though, we are massively off-topic. I probably shouldn't have even made my initial post that started this tangent.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

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Mr Man
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Post by Mr Man » Wed Nov 23, 2016 4:07 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:

If you look at what I was responding to, it was the new secularist worldview, where one is defined solely by one's ability to ascent to beliefs and make decisions, and where a fetus is not really a "human being" if it lacks experience, memory, etc. One of the strategies of the secularist worldview, in asserting itself, is to set up nonreligious foreign ideologies as being suddenly "religious". This means that they can be excluded from sphere of "things that are reasonable".

I digress though, we are massively off-topic. I probably shouldn't have even made my initial post that started this tangent.
Thanks for the reply Coëmgenu & yes we have gone massively off-topic.

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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Post by Phena » Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:45 am

robertk wrote:
Phena wrote:
robertk wrote:His argument against govt. restrictions on abortion are based on freedom of choice and keeping govt. out of it...Fair enough.
I think the Venerable's point was more keeping religion out of it.

A quote I heard and like, which I think sums this up, goes something like, "we should have freedom of religion and freedom from religion".
I think all countries, no matter religious or not, have laws against killing humans.
So I don't follow the reasoning that restricting abortion is bringing religion in?
I'll quote Ven. Bodhi again just so it is clear that my above post does indeed reflect what he has said:
Those who oppose abortion on religious grounds should not be entitled to use government policy to impose the entailments of their beliefs on others.
Bhikkhu Bodhi is clearly arguing for a secular society where religious beliefs (particularity on one group over another) are not imposed on citizens via a government. I agree with this most emphatically. Non-secular governments have proven to be a failure and quite often despotic.

I do not know of any examples where abortion has been restricted that were not influenced by religious groups.

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robertk
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Post by robertk » Thu Nov 24, 2016 4:19 am

Phena wrote: Bhikkhu Bodhi is clearly arguing for a secular society where religious beliefs (particularity on one group over another) are not imposed on citizens via a government. I agree with this most emphatically. Non-secular governments have proven to be a failure and quite often despotic.

I do not know of any examples where abortion has been restricted that were not influenced by religious groups.
Sometimes I think people use the term 'religion' in a disparaging way. What is key in the debate is the worldview aspect of religion, not whether people light incense or go to church. Humanism (isn't that a misnomer ), as Coëmgenu explained, is just as much a worldview as Buddhism.

If people believe there is no kamma, no rebirth and that killing a fetus is not an issue - that is their worldview, just as much as the worldview of Buddhists is the opposite.
The fact that Bhikkhu Bodhi agrees with the Buddhist view, probably knows the massive number of abortions each year, yet feels that Trump shouldn't be trying to restrict abortion at all is of course a view that he is entitled to.

I think secular governments also have issues. Russia, China and Cambodia all had killings in the millions(leaving aside abortion) as part of Communist rule (of course communism is a worldview).

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Mr Man
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Post by Mr Man » Thu Nov 24, 2016 9:10 am

robertk wrote:
If people believe there is no kamma, no rebirth and that killing a fetus is not an issue - that is their worldview, just as much as the worldview of Buddhists is the opposite.
I'm not sure that there are many who would say "killing a fetus is not an issue".

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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Post by Phena » Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:02 am

robertk wrote:The fact that Bhikkhu Bodhi agrees with the Buddhist view, probably knows the massive number of abortions each year, yet feels that Trump shouldn't be trying to restrict abortion at all is of course a view that he is entitled to.
You seem to be reacting to the fact the Ven. Bodhi believes secular elected governments are more effective at handling these matters than non-secular entities. I believe he would have given this careful consideration and is a wise position to take in light of the pitfalls of religious governments.
robertk wrote:I think secular governments also have issues. Russia, China and Cambodia all had killings in the millions(leaving aside abortion) as part of Communist rule (of course communism is a worldview).
The above countries are all (or were) dictatorships and are therefore poor examples.

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robertk
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Post by robertk » Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:41 am

Phena wrote: You seem to be reacting to the fact the Ven. Bodhi believes secular elected governments are more effective at handling these matters than non-secular entities. I believe he would have given this careful consideration and is a wise position to take in light of the pitfalls of religious governments.

.
umm i don't follow.

do you mean that before roe v wade - when the USA had tighter restrictions on abortion- that they had a religious government?

my view is that "secular" is just another word for a worldview. If buddhists like Bodhi believe, as he does, that abortion is killing of a human , how can he not be appalled by the carnage each year.

To me - my opinion- this is just as problematic as his worry about gay rights (possibly, not certain) suffering under Trump.

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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Post by ieee23 » Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:59 pm

I would have preferred that this thread have been posted to the News subboard as I am a member of the group that has news disappeared from my feed here. Especially these days, I don't come here to see politics.

No offense to Paul, the OP

[Admin note: We've since created a Hot Topics area in the News forum and moved this topic there... so the author of this post should no longer see this topic. If you too wish to filter out News topics from your Dhamma Wheel experience see here]
Whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind. - MN 19

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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Post by Phena » Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:29 pm

robertk wrote:my view is that "secular" is just another word for a worldview.
Yes, and what of it? Who cares if this is just another worldview, governments are worldly by their nature and should remain that way. So Let's leave the governing to elected secular governments without interference from religious groups running their own agendas, so that the citizens are not lumbered with the religious values of others. Now, if we wish to apply the dhamma (or any other spiritual path) at an individual level, then we should just get on with it and do this without interference. This in my opinion is how it should work and is also what Bhikkhu Bodhi is advocating.

"Freedom of religion and freedom from religion" is essentially an expression of this principle.

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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Post by SarathW » Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:49 pm

Is Bhikkhu Bodhi clinging to a view?
:thinking:

=============
Maybe we cling to a view of who created this universe. Whatever it is we cling to, even how the government should run the country, all of that makes it extremely difficult to see things as they really are. To be open-minded. And it is only an open mind which can take in new ideas and understanding.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... bl095.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Post by Phena » Fri Nov 25, 2016 2:31 am

SarathW wrote:Is Bhikkhu Bodhi clinging to a view?
:thinking:

=============
Maybe we cling to a view of who created this universe. Whatever it is we cling to, even how the government should run the country, all of that makes it extremely difficult to see things as they really are. To be open-minded. And it is only an open mind which can take in new ideas and understanding.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... bl095.html
Perhaps you should only be concerned about your view-clinging and not the Venerables.

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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Post by chownah » Fri Nov 25, 2016 2:39 am

SarathW wrote:Is Bhikkhu Bodhi clinging to a view?
:thinking:

=============
Maybe we cling to a view of who created this universe. Whatever it is we cling to, even how the government should run the country, all of that makes it extremely difficult to see things as they really are. To be open-minded. And it is only an open mind which can take in new ideas and understanding.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... bl095.html
Do you think there is any way that we could know of the condition of bhikkhu bodhi's clinginess?
chownah

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