Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
SarathW
Posts: 10319
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Post by SarathW » Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:00 am

I cannot hold him up as any sort of Dhamma teacher.
I share your frustration but we can't discount his contribution to our understanding of Buddha's teaching.
I can't think of my learning without Ven Bodhi's guidance.
All the teacher I know including Ven. Thanissaro Ajhan Chah etc they all have some points we can not reconcile with.
I think we have to find the Buddha within ourselves not from outside.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 6445
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Post by Mkoll » Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:30 am

JackOfHearts wrote:Although Bhikkhu Bodhi lost all credibility as a Dhamma teacher for me with his advocacy for a doctrine of Just War, here, though he couches it as "defending women's reproductive rights," he's advocating for women's right to have an abortion. No matter how much I'd like to sugarcoat it, it's hard to avoid the conclusion that once again Bhikkhu Bodhi is encouraging people to violate the first precept. I take it as further evidence of a fundamental failure by Bhikkhu Bodhi to understand the Dhamma at even a basic level despite his deep familiarity with the suttas. Shocking, I know. But his statements are absolutely irreconcilable with the Dhamma unless you are willing to throw out the teachings of all the Ajahns and the Pali Canon itself. Myself, the only way to reconcile the irreconcilable is to reluctantly admit that despite his admirable efforts in translating the Canon, I cannot hold him up as any sort of Dhamma teacher.
Which Ajahns are explicitly against all abortion, besides Ven. Thanissaro? And what passages in the Canon, besides the one I know of about the gandhabba descending into the womb, detail what happens during conception and pregnancy?
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 20146
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:54 am

Greetings Mkoll,
Mkoll wrote:Which Ajahns are explicitly against all abortion, besides Ven. Thanissaro?
It might make more sense to turn that question on its head and point out that none could be explicitly for abortion, because...
The four transgressions which incur a Parajika, the penalty of automatic disrobal, are as follows:...

3. Purposely killing a human being or encouraging him or her to commit suicide (this includes inciting another to murder somebody and it also includes convincing a woman to have an abortion.
(Source)

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 6445
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Post by Mkoll » Fri Nov 18, 2016 1:17 am

Good point, retro. But, what defines "convincing a woman to have an abortion"? I mean, how explicit or implicit does it have to be to qualify for that? Surely, this is a statement open to interpretation. What do the commentaries have to say? Some would construe Ven. Bodhi's statements as doing this, others would not. So who is to say whether what he has said is a parajika offense? Also, I'd like to see the Pali on this dissected by one of our resident grammarians ;).
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

SarathW
Posts: 10319
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Post by SarathW » Fri Nov 18, 2016 1:34 am

it also includes convincing a woman to have an abortion.
:goodpost: Retro.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 20146
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Nov 18, 2016 2:52 am

Greetings Mkoll,
Mkoll wrote:Good point, retro. But, what defines "convincing a woman to have an abortion"? I mean, how explicit or implicit does it have to be to qualify for that?
If you want to investigate further, I would recommend downloading Thanissaro Bhikkhu's "Buddhist Monastic Code" parts 1 & 2 and doing a word-search on the term "abortion". There's extra clarification and commentarial source material in there.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 11869
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Post by DNS » Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:01 am

In the article Bhikkhu Bodhi mentions:
He threatened to deny women their reproductive rights and access to critical healthcare.
I assume that is referring to Planned Parenthood and the funding and de-funding issues related to this agency.

Bhikkhu Bodhi did not mention abortion, at least not directly.

Abortion is just one of the things provided by Planned Parenthood:
wikipedia wrote:The services provided by PPFA affiliates vary by location, with just over half of all Planned Parenthood affiliates in the United States performing abortions.[46] Services provided by PPFA include birth control and long-acting reversible contraception;[47] emergency contraception; breast and cervical cancer screening; pregnancy testing and pregnancy options counseling; testing and treatment for sexually transmitted infections; sex education; vasectomies; LGBT services; and abortion.[48][49]

santa100
Posts: 3130
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Post by santa100 » Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:23 am

More ongoing discussions about Ven. Bodhi's article including the venerable's own comments and clarification is available here. If you have comment or need any clarification, feel free to post it there so the venerable can address it directly.

chownah
Posts: 7567
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Post by chownah » Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:39 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mkoll,
Mkoll wrote:Which Ajahns are explicitly against all abortion, besides Ven. Thanissaro?
It might make more sense to turn that question on its head and point out that none could be explicitly for abortion, because...
The four transgressions which incur a Parajika, the penalty of automatic disrobal, are as follows:...

3. Purposely killing a human being or encouraging him or her to commit suicide (this includes inciting another to murder somebody and it also includes convincing a woman to have an abortion.
(Source)

Metta,
Paul. :)
Some say that immediately upon the union of the sperm and egg a sentient being is formed....others say that it happens later.
chownah

pulga
Posts: 1320
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:02 pm

Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Post by pulga » Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:02 am

santa100 wrote:More ongoing discussions about Ven. Bodhi's article including the venerable's own comments and clarification is available here. If you have comment or need any clarification, feel free to post it there so the venerable can address it directly.
The comments to Bhikkhu Bodhi's article are well worth reading. The commentator Truth provides a well informed and effective rebuttal to the Venerable One's essay.

User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 6445
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Post by Mkoll » Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:27 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mkoll,
Mkoll wrote:Good point, retro. But, what defines "convincing a woman to have an abortion"? I mean, how explicit or implicit does it have to be to qualify for that?
If you want to investigate further, I would recommend downloading Thanissaro Bhikkhu's "Buddhist Monastic Code" parts 1 & 2 and doing a word-search on the term "abortion". There's extra clarification and commentarial source material in there.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Read it, don't see any clarification for my question beyond the obvious: "arranging for the operation, supplying the medicines, or advising a woman to get an abortion and she follows through—incurs a parajika." My question was whether Ven. Bodhi is doing that; I guess I should have made that even more explicit. And judging from his comments on the post santa linked, IMO he is not.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

Phena
Posts: 470
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 6:40 am

Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Post by Phena » Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:34 am

Here is Bhikkhu Bodhi's position on abortion. This also happens to mirror my view.
1) Although as a Buddhist I am personally opposed to abortion and would advise a woman who sought my counsel against obtaining one, I believe that the question of whether abortion should be legal is a political matter that should be left to the organs of government to determine. Those who oppose abortion on religious grounds should not be entitled to use government policy to impose the entailments of their beliefs on others.
Source

User avatar
JackOfHearts
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2014 10:33 pm

Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Post by JackOfHearts » Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:54 am

Earlier it was argued that Bhikkhu Bodhi wasn't advocating women's right to an abortion because he said, "He [Trump] threatened to deny women their reproductive rights." I have not heard Trump or right wingers attack pap smears or breast exams, so please let's not kid ourselves.

If Bhikkhu Bodhi believes that the question of whether abortion should be legal is a political matter that should be left to the organs of government to determine, why then does he insert himself into this debate, especially when it is clearly counter to the basic teachings of the religion he represents?

SarathW
Posts: 10319
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Post by SarathW » Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:01 am

Those who oppose abortion on religious grounds should not be entitled to use government policy to impose the entailments of their beliefs on others.
Well, isn't this the so called democracy?
If a democracy government ask people to follow the Noble Eightfold Path, can we stop it?
:shrug:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 20146
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:02 am

Greetings,

What if the opposition to abortion were not on religious grounds per se, but based simply on the right to not be murdered by another? Can laws to achieve the goals of non-murder be legitimately enacted without recourse to religion?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 41 guests