Pauline Hanson calls for Muslim immigration ban in maiden speech to Senate

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Re: Pauline Hanson calls for Muslim immigration ban in maiden speech to Senate

Post by lyndon taylor » Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:29 pm

[/quote]What is the estimated proportion of these Muslim immigrants who are violent Islamists?[/quote]

Several million radicals out of 1.5 billion, I believe.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

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Re: Pauline Hanson calls for Muslim immigration ban in maiden speech to Senate

Post by Kim OHara » Fri Sep 16, 2016 10:21 pm

Bakmoon wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:slam is the religion, the political system and the law. Now, what people are justifiably worried is about those muslims who take this belief system seriously and want to impose it on others either through direct violence ( jihad) or through propaganda and indirect violence, such as intimidation, funding terrorism, infiltration in structures of western power, counter information, etc. (islamism). There's no doubt that there is anti muslim bigotry by people who don't like muslims for being muslims. The evidence shows that not all muslims are part of this hostile supremacist and fascist project . But the evidence also shows that a significant minority is. You can check the Pew Research polls, among many others, that give you an idea of the level of radicalization within the muslim world.
What is the estimated proportion of these Muslim immigrants who are violent Islamists?
I will answer that: less than 1%. Most Muslim immigrants are fleeing radical Islam. It has made their lives an absolute misery, cost them livelihoods, possessions and family members. An American is far more likely to be shot by a home-grown American than by an Islamist - the figures are about 5000 : 1.
For the truth of the Aussie situation, look at the fact check on Hanson's speech - http://www.sbs.com.au/news/thefeed/arti ... den-speech.
I'm going to correct MP's second sentence:
Now, what people are unjustifiably worried is about those muslims who take this belief system seriously and want to impose it on others either through direct violence ( jihad) or through propaganda and indirect violence, such as intimidation, funding terrorism, infiltration in structures of western power, counter information, etc. (islamism).
Our media and politicians (and I include Portugal in 'our') are running a scare campaign. They are the real villains. The immigrants and refugees are the victims.

:namaste:
Kim

P.S. Now I can answer and correct Bakmoon's question:
What is the estimated proportion of these Muslim immigrants who are violent Islamists?
That depends on the motives of whoever's doing the estimating.
The better question is,
What is the real proportion of these Muslim immigrants who are violent Islamists?
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Re: Pauline Hanson calls for Muslim immigration ban in maiden speech to Senate

Post by Modus.Ponens » Fri Sep 16, 2016 10:43 pm

The most reliable polls on muslim demographics and opinions are done by Pew Research. For example this report. I can't find the most complete one on my phone, so at least this gives a general view:

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the- ... -overview/

The Henry Jackson Society has done some good work in the UK, such as

http://www.google.pt/url?q=http://henry ... SryZYYIiNw

As for justifiability of worries, given the rapid increase of terrorism in Europe, the rapid rise of the nationalist right wing parties in Europe (and now Australi, aparently) and the eminence of a second economic crash, I wouldn't say this is a scenario that fosters trust in the future of economy and peace. The peace part worries me particularly.

We'll see. I hope you are right Kim.
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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Re: Pauline Hanson calls for Muslim immigration ban in maiden speech to Senate

Post by Bakmoon » Sat Sep 17, 2016 12:35 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:The most reliable polls on muslim demographics and opinions are done by Pew Research. For example this report. I can't find the most complete one on my phone, so at least this gives a general view:

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the- ... -overview/
Hmm, I don't quite see any direct information about violent Islamism. The polling about implementing Sharia law doesn't tell us that much because the question isn't specific enough, so that could really mean a variety of totally different things depending on who is being asked the question.

Note that the polling concludes that extremism is "Widely Rejected" and "Most Muslims around the world express support for democracy".
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Re: Pauline Hanson calls for Muslim immigration ban in maiden speech to Senate

Post by lyndon taylor » Sat Sep 17, 2016 1:01 am

Sharia law to most Muslims is much like the Constitution is to most Americans, most Americans think the constitution was/is some great document or plan for living that is unequaled in the world. Most Muslims think the Sharia law is a great justice system that if actually implemented, would radically reduce crime and create just solutions in every form of life. To see supporting Sharia law as a form of extremism is missing the point, wanting to strap a bomb on someone and blow people up is extremism, Sharia law has nothing to do with that, and FYI cutting off hands and death for adultery is like 2% of what constitutes Sharia law, and the least likely part of it to be supported by modern Muslims.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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Re: Pauline Hanson calls for Muslim immigration ban in maiden speech to Senate

Post by Kim OHara » Sat Sep 17, 2016 2:44 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:The most reliable polls on muslim demographics and opinions are done by Pew Research. For example this report. I can't find the most complete one on my phone, so at least this gives a general view:

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the- ... -overview/

The Henry Jackson Society has done some good work in the UK, such as

http://www.google.pt/url?q=http://henry ... SryZYYIiNw
Someone asked about this sort of thing on Neutral Politics https://www.reddit.com/r/NeutralPolitic ... formation/ and was given this reminder:
NP-forum wrote:Source: I have a PhD in American Political Behavior and study public opinion / voting behavior for a living.
The short answer is that, yes, the Pew Research Center has an excellent reputation for being fair, accurate, and reliable. It is nonpartisan, nonprofit, and employs high quality researchers who generally use the best possible practices.
The thing to recognize about the poll question you've cited is that it's really not all that different from opinions in the US. According to Gallup, 49% of Americans think it's sometimes justified for the military to target and kill civilians, and 21% of people in the US and Canada think it's sometimes justified for an individual person or small group of people to do the same thing.
Gallup also shows that factors like lower human development, national instability, poverty, and oppressive governments increase the likelihood of supporting violence against citizens. (Which makes sense -- people in those areas are more likely to see violence as "normal," to have seen it committed against their own friends and family, and to have fewer plausible options for nonviolent influence). So it stands to reason that these numbers would be highest in places like Palestine, Afghanistan, and Egypt.
The biggest difference between these polls and the US polls is that Pew is asking specifically about suicide bombing in defense of Islam, whereas people in the US would have some other scenario in mind that would make it "sometimes justified." If we asked if it's sometimes justifiable to commit violence against civilians in order to defend Christianity from its enemies, support from American Christians would be pretty high.
MP wrote:As for justifiability of worries, given the rapid increase of terrorism in Europe, the rapid rise of the nationalist right wing parties in Europe (and now Australi, aparently) and the eminence of a second economic crash, I wouldn't say this is a scenario that fosters trust in the future of economy and peace.
There is no denying that there are real problems but they are not the ones that we are being told (by politicians and the media) to worry about.
The two big ones are (2) that the global economy is a Ponzi scheme and (2) climate change is likely to make everything harder to manage. It's already driving the Syrian war and the refugee crisis ... and we're being told to blame the victims. :toilet:
MP wrote:We'll see. I hope you are right Kim.
So do I!

:namaste:
Kim

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Re: Pauline Hanson calls for Muslim immigration ban in maiden speech to Senate

Post by Kim OHara » Sat Sep 17, 2016 2:50 am

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-16/s ... rk/7854350
:candle:
What should we do: leave them to die?

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Re: Pauline Hanson calls for Muslim immigration ban in maiden speech to Senate

Post by Modus.Ponens » Sat Sep 17, 2016 5:42 pm

We shouldn' t leave them to die. We should finance refugee camps in neighbouring areas or coutries which are safe. The currency in these places is much weaker so with the same amount of our money it's possible to help a lot more people. Not only that, the migrants who are not war refugees, nor politically persecuted, wouldn't travel thousands of miles to end up on a refugee camp. Plus, the social and political tensions in Europe, America and the West in general would stop increasing, especially the increase of nationalist right wing parties.
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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Re: Pauline Hanson calls for Muslim immigration ban in maiden speech to Senate

Post by Bundokji » Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:30 pm

Kim OHara wrote:Gallup also shows that factors like lower human development, national instability, poverty, and oppressive governments increase the likelihood of supporting violence against citizens. (Which makes sense -- people in those areas are more likely to see violence as "normal," to have seen it committed against their own friends and family, and to have fewer plausible options for nonviolent influence). So it stands to reason that these numbers would be highest in places like Palestine, Afghanistan, and Egypt.
I agree, but i am wondering if those factors only exist in Muslim countries?! and if they are more dominant in Muslim countries, i am wondering if there is a causal relationship between Islam (in its current form) and backwardness.

There are many simple ways to reveal the truth. For example, where i live, we have a christian minority (around %10 of the population) I wonder if we can do a research comparing the answers of non-Muslim minorities in Muslim countries (as a control group) with the rest of the population in relation to violence against citizens. Do you expect the answers will be similar or different?
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Re: Pauline Hanson calls for Muslim immigration ban in maiden speech to Senate

Post by Disciple » Sat Sep 17, 2016 11:47 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:We shouldn' t leave them to die. We should finance refugee camps in neighbouring areas or coutries which are safe. The currency in these places is much weaker so with the same amount of our money it's possible to help a lot more people. Not only that, the migrants who are not war refugees, nor politically persecuted, wouldn't travel thousands of miles to end up on a refugee camp. Plus, the social and political tensions in Europe, America and the West in general would stop increasing, especially the increase of nationalist right wing parties.
Agreed. This is a logical solution.

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Re: Pauline Hanson calls for Muslim immigration ban in maiden speech to Senate

Post by chownah » Sun Sep 18, 2016 4:13 am

Disciple wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:We shouldn' t leave them to die. We should finance refugee camps in neighbouring areas or coutries which are safe. The currency in these places is much weaker so with the same amount of our money it's possible to help a lot more people. Not only that, the migrants who are not war refugees, nor politically persecuted, wouldn't travel thousands of miles to end up on a refugee camp. Plus, the social and political tensions in Europe, America and the West in general would stop increasing, especially the increase of nationalist right wing parties.
Agreed. This is a logical solution.
I think that this is a great idea too....but I think it is really only a solution for the immediate problems of the already existing populations of europe, armerica, and the west in general. It has the potential to create other problems. For instance, how long will people (families often) remain in the camps. What will the children see there as they grow up (assuming a long term of residency) which will mold their futures? The community they grow up in will be comprised of a bunch of bored individuals who are unsatisfied with their lives and with no opportunity to make improvements....seems like a perfect breeding ground for extremism. Will there be good schools teaching the children about the virtues of democracy and freedom and will this resonate with the students who basically have neither?

I want to say again that I think that Modus.Ponens has brought a great idea but in and of itself without other facilities etc. it has the potential to create problems in the long run......I guess....don't know for sure....
chownah

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Re: Pauline Hanson calls for Muslim immigration ban in maiden speech to Senate

Post by Kamran » Sun Sep 18, 2016 4:19 am

Kim OHara wrote:Gallup also shows that factors like lower human development, national instability, poverty, and oppressive governments increase the likelihood of supporting violence against citizens. (Which makes sense -- people in those areas are more likely to see violence as "normal," to have seen it committed against their own friends and family, and to have fewer plausible options for nonviolent influence). So it stands to reason that these numbers would be highest in places like Palestine, Afghanistan, and Egypt.
Actually, there is a large Middle-class in the middle-east and education levels are high in areas that the West has not invaded, or destabilized by financing fundamentalist militias.

Check the comparison between Iran and US education levels from NationMaster, for instance.
http://www.nationmaster.com/country-inf ... /Education

The Western people have actaully killed vastly more innocent people than muslim countries. Its just that you identify more with the handful of French than the 500,000 Iraqis killed by the invasion of Iraq. The Iraqis are just cockroaches you can step on, and are not really human in Western eyes.

“Pigs! Crusaders!”: US-Backed Fundamentalist Militias drive US Commandos out of al-Ray, Syria
http://www.juancole.com/2016/09/crusade ... andos.html

I think the majority of muslims would just prefer that the West stop backing fundamentalist militias and stop invading other people's countries :) Everything else they will take care of themselves.
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Re: Pauline Hanson calls for Muslim immigration ban in maiden speech to Senate

Post by Modus.Ponens » Sun Sep 18, 2016 1:54 pm

I agree that it's not a perfect solution. Not even a good one. But it's better than what we are doing. The refugee camps in Europe are also breeding grounds for extremism. "The good is the enemy of the perfect". When we try to do everything perfectly we might end up doing terrible things. And that's my opinion on this subject. We are trying to force a solution that is causing a lot of tension and might end up in disaster.

Refugee camps should have good conditions, should have military protection, medical aid, food and water supplies and as much education as possible. But the reality is that refugee status is a temporary status. For those who wish to apply to immigrate to Europe, we should do reliable background checks and accept people who don't have connections to radical movements, nor have radical views themselves.

Since I'm on my PC, I found the link I wanted to find by Pew Research that gives us a global understanding of the situation. Please remember that the total population in question is 1,500,000,000 people.

http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/w ... report.pdf
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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Re: Pauline Hanson calls for Muslim immigration ban in maiden speech to Senate

Post by Mr Man » Sun Sep 18, 2016 4:19 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:Why would you call me a hate preacher?
Hi Modus
Perhaps you could show me where I called you a "hate preacher"?

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Re: Pauline Hanson calls for Muslim immigration ban in maiden speech to Senate

Post by badscooter » Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:08 pm

Bakmoon wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:slam is the religion, the political system and the law. Now, what people are justifiably worried is about those muslims who take this belief system seriously and want to impose it on others either through direct violence ( jihad) or through propaganda and indirect violence, such as intimidation, funding terrorism, infiltration in structures of western power, counter information, etc. (islamism). There's no doubt that there is anti muslim bigotry by people who don't like muslims for being muslims. The evidence shows that not all muslims are part of this hostile supremacist and fascist project . But the evidence also shows that a significant minority is. You can check the Pew Research polls, among many others, that give you an idea of the level of radicalization within the muslim world.
What is the estimated proportion of these Muslim immigrants who are violent Islamists?
I heard that from all US intelligence, they gathered an approximate number is between 10%-20% who believe in the extremism going on today. out of 1.5 billion, that leaves 150-300 million. That is larger than many countries!
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