Pauline Hanson calls for Muslim immigration ban in maiden speech to Senate

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Mr Man
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Re: Pauline Hanson calls for Muslim immigration ban in maiden speech to Senate

Post by Mr Man » Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:31 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Mr Man wrote: Hi Modus
So you are against the imprisonment of Anjem Choudary?
Why would you think that's a good question? You must be completely mistaken about who you're talking with. So, once again, let me explain what should be obvious.

If KKK members incite murder, or are involved in terrorist or criminal activities, those members that are doing it should be arrested, as the law demands. Because of these very laws Anjem Choudary should have been arrested years ago. This is quite different from people expressing prejudiced and racist opinions. These should be met with factual arguments debunking their beliefs and with ridicule of their stupid beliefs. This is the best way of debunking prejudice because in the long run it's a lot more effective than censorship or prison.
Hi Modus
Perhaps it is worth noting that Choudary wasn't actually convicted for inciting murder or violence but for encouraging support of a proscribed organisation (a good thing in my opinion).

This is from a an article in a UK paper
Sure enough, the news of his conviction will reignite debate in some quarters over the limits of legitimate speech in this country. Freedom of expression is, of course, protected by law. And when the media came under fire for putting Choudary in front of the camera in 2013, their defence was always that it was important to hear extremist views in order that they can be challenged and deconstructed. There is surely a degree of truth in that. If we condemn Choudary for supposedly removing the ability of young Muslims to think for themselves, how should we react when his supporters contend that by silencing him we are fundamentally hypocritical?
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/the ... 94426.html

And here is another
One of the prosecution’s claims was that Choudary ‘radicalised’ people. His lectures apparently turned impressionable young Muslim men into killers. One of the killers of Lee Rigby was a fan of his nutty talks. Others who listened to him later went to Syria to join ISIS. But unless we are going to give up entirely on the idea of free will, then we must argue that Choudary is no more responsible for these individuals’ behaviour than the right-wing, anti-mass migration newspaper columnists cited by Anders Breivik are for his atrocity, or the authors of the Bible are for every mad killing carried out by fans of that Good Book.
http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/ar ... 9v-Rnl4epo

Please take note of the arguments used above.

Personally I have no time for Islamic hate preachers and no time for non-Islamic hate preachers.

Saoshun
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Re: Pauline Hanson calls for Muslim immigration ban in maiden speech to Senate

Post by Saoshun » Fri Sep 16, 2016 4:35 pm

Ban all religion who can not prove what they claim = problem solved in one day.
Remember… the Buddha had said that everyone living in this world is crazy, by the phrase, “Sabbē prutajjana ummattakā”; excluding the Arahants, everyone else is crazy. Would you get angry if a mad person scolds? Do we get angry for a crazy thing done by a crazy person? Just think about it! :candle:

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Pauline Hanson calls for Muslim immigration ban in maiden speech to Senate

Post by Modus.Ponens » Fri Sep 16, 2016 7:36 pm

Why would you call me a hate preacher? By not providing valid arguments and providing invalid and heavy insults you are not doing anything of use. Please spare your time if you have to. But I would very much like to know if you would consider Winston Churchill's warnings instances of hate speech.

The case of Choudary is quite simpler and has little to do with freedom of speech. The West is at war with Al Qaeda, ISIS, Bokho Haram, the Muslim Brotherhood, and radical islamists in general. Since Anjem Choudary falls squarely into the definition of a radical islamist, and has ties to terrorist organizations, he should be condemned for treason.

Pauline, as unpleasant as she is, is not on a mission to destroy the West, or subjugate it to her will. Therefore she falls under the previous situations I described about free speech. You want to take her down? Don't do what the Greens did. Uptight indignation will not do anything against her kind because she delights in that reaction.

And don't try to insult your way out of contentious discussions. Insults will not solve the contentious problems. Your fundamental mistake is thinking that me and Pauline have anything to do with each other. The longer you confuse these the more power you are giving to the likes of Pauline, Farage, Le Pen, Wilders and so on. I and many others on my camp have been warning about this for ages and it's all becoming a reality. Would you please start listening to the warnings?
He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
(Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

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Mr Man
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Re: Pauline Hanson calls for Muslim immigration ban in maiden speech to Senate

Post by Mr Man » Fri Sep 16, 2016 7:50 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:Why would you call me a hate preacher? By not providing valid arguments and providing invalid and heavy insults you are not doing anything of use. Please spare your time if you have to. But I would very much like to know if you would consider Winston Churchill's warnings instances of hate speech.
Just to be 100% clear here - I have not called you a hate preacher and have not made any personal attacks on you in this thread.

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Re: Pauline Hanson calls for Muslim immigration ban in maiden speech to Senate

Post by Bakmoon » Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:02 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:slam is the religion, the political system and the law. Now, what people are justifiably worried is about those muslims who take this belief system seriously and want to impose it on others either through direct violence ( jihad) or through propaganda and indirect violence, such as intimidation, funding terrorism, infiltration in structures of western power, counter information, etc. (islamism). There's no doubt that there is anti muslim bigotry by people who don't like muslims for being muslims. The evidence shows that not all muslims are part of this hostile supremacist and fascist project . But the evidence also shows that a significant minority is. You can check the Pew Research polls, among many others, that give you an idea of the level of radicalization within the muslim world.
What is the estimated proportion of these Muslim immigrants who are violent Islamists?
The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.

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Re: Pauline Hanson calls for Muslim immigration ban in maiden speech to Senate

Post by lyndon taylor » Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:29 pm

[/quote]What is the estimated proportion of these Muslim immigrants who are violent Islamists?[/quote]

Several million radicals out of 1.5 billion, I believe.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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Kim OHara
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Re: Pauline Hanson calls for Muslim immigration ban in maiden speech to Senate

Post by Kim OHara » Fri Sep 16, 2016 10:21 pm

Bakmoon wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:slam is the religion, the political system and the law. Now, what people are justifiably worried is about those muslims who take this belief system seriously and want to impose it on others either through direct violence ( jihad) or through propaganda and indirect violence, such as intimidation, funding terrorism, infiltration in structures of western power, counter information, etc. (islamism). There's no doubt that there is anti muslim bigotry by people who don't like muslims for being muslims. The evidence shows that not all muslims are part of this hostile supremacist and fascist project . But the evidence also shows that a significant minority is. You can check the Pew Research polls, among many others, that give you an idea of the level of radicalization within the muslim world.
What is the estimated proportion of these Muslim immigrants who are violent Islamists?
I will answer that: less than 1%. Most Muslim immigrants are fleeing radical Islam. It has made their lives an absolute misery, cost them livelihoods, possessions and family members. An American is far more likely to be shot by a home-grown American than by an Islamist - the figures are about 5000 : 1.
For the truth of the Aussie situation, look at the fact check on Hanson's speech - http://www.sbs.com.au/news/thefeed/arti ... den-speech.
I'm going to correct MP's second sentence:
Now, what people are unjustifiably worried is about those muslims who take this belief system seriously and want to impose it on others either through direct violence ( jihad) or through propaganda and indirect violence, such as intimidation, funding terrorism, infiltration in structures of western power, counter information, etc. (islamism).
Our media and politicians (and I include Portugal in 'our') are running a scare campaign. They are the real villains. The immigrants and refugees are the victims.

:namaste:
Kim

P.S. Now I can answer and correct Bakmoon's question:
What is the estimated proportion of these Muslim immigrants who are violent Islamists?
That depends on the motives of whoever's doing the estimating.
The better question is,
What is the real proportion of these Muslim immigrants who are violent Islamists?
:namaste:

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Re: Pauline Hanson calls for Muslim immigration ban in maiden speech to Senate

Post by Modus.Ponens » Fri Sep 16, 2016 10:43 pm

The most reliable polls on muslim demographics and opinions are done by Pew Research. For example this report. I can't find the most complete one on my phone, so at least this gives a general view:

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the- ... -overview/

The Henry Jackson Society has done some good work in the UK, such as

http://www.google.pt/url?q=http://henry ... SryZYYIiNw

As for justifiability of worries, given the rapid increase of terrorism in Europe, the rapid rise of the nationalist right wing parties in Europe (and now Australi, aparently) and the eminence of a second economic crash, I wouldn't say this is a scenario that fosters trust in the future of economy and peace. The peace part worries me particularly.

We'll see. I hope you are right Kim.
He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
(Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

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Re: Pauline Hanson calls for Muslim immigration ban in maiden speech to Senate

Post by Bakmoon » Sat Sep 17, 2016 12:35 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:The most reliable polls on muslim demographics and opinions are done by Pew Research. For example this report. I can't find the most complete one on my phone, so at least this gives a general view:

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the- ... -overview/
Hmm, I don't quite see any direct information about violent Islamism. The polling about implementing Sharia law doesn't tell us that much because the question isn't specific enough, so that could really mean a variety of totally different things depending on who is being asked the question.

Note that the polling concludes that extremism is "Widely Rejected" and "Most Muslims around the world express support for democracy".
The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.

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Re: Pauline Hanson calls for Muslim immigration ban in maiden speech to Senate

Post by lyndon taylor » Sat Sep 17, 2016 1:01 am

Sharia law to most Muslims is much like the Constitution is to most Americans, most Americans think the constitution was/is some great document or plan for living that is unequaled in the world. Most Muslims think the Sharia law is a great justice system that if actually implemented, would radically reduce crime and create just solutions in every form of life. To see supporting Sharia law as a form of extremism is missing the point, wanting to strap a bomb on someone and blow people up is extremism, Sharia law has nothing to do with that, and FYI cutting off hands and death for adultery is like 2% of what constitutes Sharia law, and the least likely part of it to be supported by modern Muslims.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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Kim OHara
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Re: Pauline Hanson calls for Muslim immigration ban in maiden speech to Senate

Post by Kim OHara » Sat Sep 17, 2016 2:44 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:The most reliable polls on muslim demographics and opinions are done by Pew Research. For example this report. I can't find the most complete one on my phone, so at least this gives a general view:

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the- ... -overview/

The Henry Jackson Society has done some good work in the UK, such as

http://www.google.pt/url?q=http://henry ... SryZYYIiNw
Someone asked about this sort of thing on Neutral Politics https://www.reddit.com/r/NeutralPolitic ... formation/ and was given this reminder:
NP-forum wrote:Source: I have a PhD in American Political Behavior and study public opinion / voting behavior for a living.
The short answer is that, yes, the Pew Research Center has an excellent reputation for being fair, accurate, and reliable. It is nonpartisan, nonprofit, and employs high quality researchers who generally use the best possible practices.
The thing to recognize about the poll question you've cited is that it's really not all that different from opinions in the US. According to Gallup, 49% of Americans think it's sometimes justified for the military to target and kill civilians, and 21% of people in the US and Canada think it's sometimes justified for an individual person or small group of people to do the same thing.
Gallup also shows that factors like lower human development, national instability, poverty, and oppressive governments increase the likelihood of supporting violence against citizens. (Which makes sense -- people in those areas are more likely to see violence as "normal," to have seen it committed against their own friends and family, and to have fewer plausible options for nonviolent influence). So it stands to reason that these numbers would be highest in places like Palestine, Afghanistan, and Egypt.
The biggest difference between these polls and the US polls is that Pew is asking specifically about suicide bombing in defense of Islam, whereas people in the US would have some other scenario in mind that would make it "sometimes justified." If we asked if it's sometimes justifiable to commit violence against civilians in order to defend Christianity from its enemies, support from American Christians would be pretty high.
MP wrote:As for justifiability of worries, given the rapid increase of terrorism in Europe, the rapid rise of the nationalist right wing parties in Europe (and now Australi, aparently) and the eminence of a second economic crash, I wouldn't say this is a scenario that fosters trust in the future of economy and peace.
There is no denying that there are real problems but they are not the ones that we are being told (by politicians and the media) to worry about.
The two big ones are (2) that the global economy is a Ponzi scheme and (2) climate change is likely to make everything harder to manage. It's already driving the Syrian war and the refugee crisis ... and we're being told to blame the victims. :toilet:
MP wrote:We'll see. I hope you are right Kim.
So do I!

:namaste:
Kim

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Re: Pauline Hanson calls for Muslim immigration ban in maiden speech to Senate

Post by Kim OHara » Sat Sep 17, 2016 2:50 am

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-16/s ... rk/7854350
:candle:
What should we do: leave them to die?

:meditate:
Kim

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Re: Pauline Hanson calls for Muslim immigration ban in maiden speech to Senate

Post by Modus.Ponens » Sat Sep 17, 2016 5:42 pm

We shouldn' t leave them to die. We should finance refugee camps in neighbouring areas or coutries which are safe. The currency in these places is much weaker so with the same amount of our money it's possible to help a lot more people. Not only that, the migrants who are not war refugees, nor politically persecuted, wouldn't travel thousands of miles to end up on a refugee camp. Plus, the social and political tensions in Europe, America and the West in general would stop increasing, especially the increase of nationalist right wing parties.
He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
(Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

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Re: Pauline Hanson calls for Muslim immigration ban in maiden speech to Senate

Post by Bundokji » Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:30 pm

Kim OHara wrote:Gallup also shows that factors like lower human development, national instability, poverty, and oppressive governments increase the likelihood of supporting violence against citizens. (Which makes sense -- people in those areas are more likely to see violence as "normal," to have seen it committed against their own friends and family, and to have fewer plausible options for nonviolent influence). So it stands to reason that these numbers would be highest in places like Palestine, Afghanistan, and Egypt.
I agree, but i am wondering if those factors only exist in Muslim countries?! and if they are more dominant in Muslim countries, i am wondering if there is a causal relationship between Islam (in its current form) and backwardness.

There are many simple ways to reveal the truth. For example, where i live, we have a christian minority (around %10 of the population) I wonder if we can do a research comparing the answers of non-Muslim minorities in Muslim countries (as a control group) with the rest of the population in relation to violence against citizens. Do you expect the answers will be similar or different?
ولَرُبَّ نَازِلَةٍ يَضِيقُ بهَا الفَضَـــــا *** ذَرْعًا؛ وعِندَ الله مِنهَا المَخْرَجُ
عَظُمَت فَلَما استُحكِمت حَلقاتها *** فُرِجت وكَانَ يَظُنُّهَا لا تُفْرَجُ
لا تَيْأَسَنَ فَكُلُ عُسْــــــرٍ بَعْــدَهُ *** يُسر يُسرّ ُبِهِ الفُؤَادُ المُحَرَّجُ
واصبر فَإِنَّ الصَــــــبر في الدُّنْيَا *** نَيْلُ المُنَى والقَصْدُ نِعْمَ المْنهجُ

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Re: Pauline Hanson calls for Muslim immigration ban in maiden speech to Senate

Post by Disciple » Sat Sep 17, 2016 11:47 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:We shouldn' t leave them to die. We should finance refugee camps in neighbouring areas or coutries which are safe. The currency in these places is much weaker so with the same amount of our money it's possible to help a lot more people. Not only that, the migrants who are not war refugees, nor politically persecuted, wouldn't travel thousands of miles to end up on a refugee camp. Plus, the social and political tensions in Europe, America and the West in general would stop increasing, especially the increase of nationalist right wing parties.
Agreed. This is a logical solution.

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Re: Pauline Hanson calls for Muslim immigration ban in maiden speech to Senate

Post by chownah » Sun Sep 18, 2016 4:13 am

Disciple wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:We shouldn' t leave them to die. We should finance refugee camps in neighbouring areas or coutries which are safe. The currency in these places is much weaker so with the same amount of our money it's possible to help a lot more people. Not only that, the migrants who are not war refugees, nor politically persecuted, wouldn't travel thousands of miles to end up on a refugee camp. Plus, the social and political tensions in Europe, America and the West in general would stop increasing, especially the increase of nationalist right wing parties.
Agreed. This is a logical solution.
I think that this is a great idea too....but I think it is really only a solution for the immediate problems of the already existing populations of europe, armerica, and the west in general. It has the potential to create other problems. For instance, how long will people (families often) remain in the camps. What will the children see there as they grow up (assuming a long term of residency) which will mold their futures? The community they grow up in will be comprised of a bunch of bored individuals who are unsatisfied with their lives and with no opportunity to make improvements....seems like a perfect breeding ground for extremism. Will there be good schools teaching the children about the virtues of democracy and freedom and will this resonate with the students who basically have neither?

I want to say again that I think that Modus.Ponens has brought a great idea but in and of itself without other facilities etc. it has the potential to create problems in the long run......I guess....don't know for sure....
chownah

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Kamran
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Re: Pauline Hanson calls for Muslim immigration ban in maiden speech to Senate

Post by Kamran » Sun Sep 18, 2016 4:19 am

Kim OHara wrote:Gallup also shows that factors like lower human development, national instability, poverty, and oppressive governments increase the likelihood of supporting violence against citizens. (Which makes sense -- people in those areas are more likely to see violence as "normal," to have seen it committed against their own friends and family, and to have fewer plausible options for nonviolent influence). So it stands to reason that these numbers would be highest in places like Palestine, Afghanistan, and Egypt.
Actually, there is a large Middle-class in the middle-east and education levels are high in areas that the West has not invaded, or destabilized by financing fundamentalist militias.

Check the comparison between Iran and US education levels from NationMaster, for instance.
http://www.nationmaster.com/country-inf ... /Education

The Western people have actaully killed vastly more innocent people than muslim countries. Its just that you identify more with the handful of French than the 500,000 Iraqis killed by the invasion of Iraq. The Iraqis are just cockroaches you can step on, and are not really human in Western eyes.

“Pigs! Crusaders!”: US-Backed Fundamentalist Militias drive US Commandos out of al-Ray, Syria
http://www.juancole.com/2016/09/crusade ... andos.html

I think the majority of muslims would just prefer that the West stop backing fundamentalist militias and stop invading other people's countries :) Everything else they will take care of themselves.
"Silence gives answers"

Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Rumi

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Re: Pauline Hanson calls for Muslim immigration ban in maiden speech to Senate

Post by Modus.Ponens » Sun Sep 18, 2016 1:54 pm

I agree that it's not a perfect solution. Not even a good one. But it's better than what we are doing. The refugee camps in Europe are also breeding grounds for extremism. "The good is the enemy of the perfect". When we try to do everything perfectly we might end up doing terrible things. And that's my opinion on this subject. We are trying to force a solution that is causing a lot of tension and might end up in disaster.

Refugee camps should have good conditions, should have military protection, medical aid, food and water supplies and as much education as possible. But the reality is that refugee status is a temporary status. For those who wish to apply to immigrate to Europe, we should do reliable background checks and accept people who don't have connections to radical movements, nor have radical views themselves.

Since I'm on my PC, I found the link I wanted to find by Pew Research that gives us a global understanding of the situation. Please remember that the total population in question is 1,500,000,000 people.

http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/w ... report.pdf
He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
(Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

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Re: Pauline Hanson calls for Muslim immigration ban in maiden speech to Senate

Post by Mr Man » Sun Sep 18, 2016 4:19 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:Why would you call me a hate preacher?
Hi Modus
Perhaps you could show me where I called you a "hate preacher"?

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Re: Pauline Hanson calls for Muslim immigration ban in maiden speech to Senate

Post by badscooter » Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:08 pm

Bakmoon wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:slam is the religion, the political system and the law. Now, what people are justifiably worried is about those muslims who take this belief system seriously and want to impose it on others either through direct violence ( jihad) or through propaganda and indirect violence, such as intimidation, funding terrorism, infiltration in structures of western power, counter information, etc. (islamism). There's no doubt that there is anti muslim bigotry by people who don't like muslims for being muslims. The evidence shows that not all muslims are part of this hostile supremacist and fascist project . But the evidence also shows that a significant minority is. You can check the Pew Research polls, among many others, that give you an idea of the level of radicalization within the muslim world.
What is the estimated proportion of these Muslim immigrants who are violent Islamists?
I heard that from all US intelligence, they gathered an approximate number is between 10%-20% who believe in the extremism going on today. out of 1.5 billion, that leaves 150-300 million. That is larger than many countries!
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"

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