Some towns in France ban burkinis

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robertk
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by robertk » Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:49 am

For those who want to discuss the pros and cons of cultural diversity please open a new topic

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Dan74
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Dan74 » Mon Aug 29, 2016 12:17 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Dan74 wrote:
It is clear that in France and elsewhere in Europe many Muslims have neither assimilated nor really integrated even. And this is the issue. I think in Australia it is less of a problem though it exists here as well. Again many people integrate well, live as good neighbours and citizens so we should be careful not to tar everyone with the same brush. But some don't. This is the real issue that worries the mainstream. When you have a sizable group of people in your midst who hate you, and everything that you stand for. On top of it they now have a role model in ISIS. Isn't this a worry?

And yes, the broader community should work hard to be kind and help people integrate rather than push them away. But in doing so if the majority yields more and more ground that will just embolden the firebrands. This is the time to be kind and firm, rather than compassionate in an idiotic way, to borrow from Trungpa.
In the UK we have the problem of radicalization which is distinct from cultural integration/assimilation. It would seem that the majority of those who are susceptible to this are UK born (superficially fairly well integrated) and a fair few are converts. The govt. has been (I believe) working hard, with some success/failure to deal with this. Partly through intervention with those who are perceived to be susceptible and partly through trying to stop those who disseminate "extremism". Unfortunately there is fuel constantly being poured on the fire through social injustice and global conflict.


--

Here is a clip of a "Social experiment"

https://youtu.be/pH6rYwAgABY
Yay! It's a good feeling at the end when they find out it isn't real and everyone just smiles, eh?
_/|\_

Janalanda
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Janalanda » Mon Aug 29, 2016 2:02 pm

I told you that problems are there to make you stronger.
Terrorist attacks are there to make us stronger ? Sharia law type of thinking is there to make woman stronger ? Pollution is there to make us stronger ? Wars are there to make us stronger ? In my opinion, problems are there for us to solve them, not to embrace them and then lie to ourselves we are stronger for been able to endure things, just for the sake of corporations looking for cheap labor to make an extra buck.
Have fun in your little isolated safe space.
Third post, third personal attack. Have you noticed how me and Dan74 could have a conversation without resorting to personal attacks despite having different opinions ? That is the difference between moderates and extremist. Extremist can not comprehend why other people could have different opinions. They prefer the simplistic idea that everybody is a racist bigot, a russian hooligan etc. This way, they feel better about themselves. They feel superior, failing to see that left wing extremism is the same as right wing extremism. The problem is not the wing, the problem is the extremism, the bigot mentality. Claiming to be anti-bigotry doesn't change a thing if the person behaves exactly like a bigot. The same way North Korea isn't democratic just by having the word "democratic" in it's official name.
For those who want to discuss the pros and cons of cultural diversity please open a new topic
Sorry. I'll try not to post in such topics in the future anyway, seen how easy people label you a devil for having a different opinion than them. I'll try sticking to dhamma related topics.

binocular
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by binocular » Mon Aug 29, 2016 2:34 pm

Dan74 wrote:It's off-topic here (maybe you could start a new topic?). Briefly though there is a large Muslim community here. An old friend and former colleague is Tunisian. And last summer we met a very friendly group of fellow campers of Indian Muslim origin who shared their Kheema with us (which was yumm). I met very devout Muslims when i did prison chaplaincy and they were always very helpful and fair.

My experience has been of generous outgoing and helpful people, and great food. Hope some of that rubs off!
For how long have you interacted with the same Muslim people?

From what I have come to learn about Muslims, is that they are nice enough at first, extremely hospitable, good food -- but only in the beginning. Evenetually, they expect you to convert to their religion or they break off all connection with you -- unless they have some kind of business or other formal connection with you.
But as far as simply friendship goes, you should be ready that they will break it off on religious grounds if you don't convert.

Meggo
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Meggo » Mon Aug 29, 2016 3:06 pm

Janalanda wrote:
I told you that problems are there to make you stronger.
Terrorist attacks are there to make us stronger ? Sharia law type of thinking is there to make woman stronger ? Pollution is there to make us stronger ? Wars are there to make us stronger ? In my opinion, problems are there for us to solve them, not to embrace them and then lie to ourselves we are stronger for been able to endure things, just for the sake of corporations looking for cheap labor to make an extra buck.
Have fun in your little isolated safe space.
Third post, third personal attack. Have you noticed how me and Dan74 could have a conversation without resorting to personal attacks despite having different opinions ? That is the difference between moderates and extremist. Extremist can not comprehend why other people could have different opinions. They prefer the simplistic idea that everybody is a racist bigot, a russian hooligan etc. This way, they feel better about themselves. They feel superior, failing to see that left wing extremism is the same as right wing extremism. The problem is not the wing, the problem is the extremism, the bigot mentality. Claiming to be anti-bigotry doesn't change a thing if the person behaves exactly like a bigot. The same way North Korea isn't democratic just by having the word "democratic" in it's official name.
For those who want to discuss the pros and cons of cultural diversity please open a new topic
Sorry. I'll try not to post in such topics in the future anyway, seen how easy people label you a devil for having a different opinion than them. I'll try sticking to dhamma related topics.
This is really useless.

chownah
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by chownah » Mon Aug 29, 2016 3:30 pm

Dan74 wrote:
chownah wrote:
Dan74 wrote:
While I agree that in an ideal world's everybody would be free to wear what they want, my impression is that if mainstream parties adopted this line in the current climate in France it would play into the hands of the extreme right and further inflame tensions.
This sounds like "peace in our time"....you will placate the extreme right today so as to avoid their wrath and in so doing you will promulgate a prejudicial anti-muslim law which will almost assuredly lead to a stronger anti-french extremism. And get this, you are destroying freedom in the process.
I can think of only one solution to this problem....ban all clothing from all beaches in france....actually their may be a second way....requiring everyone to wear burkinis at the beach.
chownah
It's an argument I hear from people who believe the west is too soft in dealing with the threat of Muslim jihadists.
Are you then saying that you thing the west is too soft in dealing with the threat of muslim jihadists and so people should not be free to wear whatever they want....and if specifically women should not be free to wear burkinis at the beach then people should remember that this is almost guaranteed to increase the threat of muslim jihadists and to increase the feelings that (as you said later in this post) "When you have a sizable group of people in your midst who hate you, and everything that you stand for.".....a feeling which will be held by BOTH the right wing AND by muslims creating an even MORE polarized situation....and leading many muslims to more clearly see that they "have a role model in ISIS" (as you stated later on in this post) and move closer and begin to feel a common cause with ISIS.

A recipe for peace for our time and a disaster in the not so distant future. When chamberlin declared "peace for our time" he immediatly started re-arming.....a good decision indeed to re-arm but a questionable decision in terms of minimizing the scope and extent of warfare...anyway, not wanting to rehash history, my question is that chamberlain saw bad trouble coming and prepared for it after calming the immediate situation with appeasement....you seem prepard to do the appeasement part of this and I'm wondering what you will do in the mean time to prepare for the bad trouble coming....or do you think that just getting tough with jihadists in this way will vanquish them?....or are you just crossing your fingers and hoping that something good will happen?....or what? (I expect that you will reply to the "or what?" option.) Also, note that the bad trouble coming could very well be coming form both the jihadists AND from the right wing elements who would only feel emboldened with their victory if the burkini ban is reinstated.
chownah

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Modus.Ponens » Mon Aug 29, 2016 5:09 pm

Skimming through the latest pages I think Dan is against banning the burkini.

But my point is that, imo, that this is a symbolic and innefective and contentious law. I suspect by design, so French politicians can continue dancing around the issue as much as they can.

I think the only sensible strategy is this: the state(s) has to try to make as clear a distinction as possible between radical muslims and non radical muslims. Considering all muslims as terrorists, or considering all muslims oppressed has one thing in common: it's a lie. There are conservative muslims, as well as liberals, ultraconservatives, secularists, jihadists, reformers, islamists and nominal muslims. For the sake of our democracies and us, including non radical muslims, we have to stop the influence and intimidation of radicals on the wider muslim comunity and on the whole society. If we pass well writen laws that do not allow abusive interpretations, we can use them to ban radical hostile muslim organizations, and arrest or deport those citizens or imigrants, respectively, who have demonstrable connections with said hostile organizations. We should be investing in green technology so we can become independent of oil, which is how Saudi Arabia spreads its particularly hostile interpretation of islam. Similarly with Qatar. We should phorbid Saudi, Iranian and Qatari money to enter our democracies to fund these hostile interpretations of islam. We should have stricter border control and only let in true war refugees from Syria, because this unchecked border policy is causing strong social tensions and the rise of nationalist right wing parties. We should arrest or deport imams inciting violence against gays, jews, atheists, ex muslims or inciting jihad in general. We should stop suppressing information about the epidemic of sexual violence and rape in Europe so we can correctly assess its magnitude and prossecute and arrest or deport the criminals. Rotherham is not the only place where this horror happened. We should be stern in banning forced marriages, especially child marriages, FGM and paralel shariah courts and be stern in enforcing those bans.

This would be a good start. All manifestations of religion that have hostile political components, or human rights violations should be banned precisely because they violate separation of church and state. The burkini ban doesn't quite fall in these categories. This would go a long way, imo.

PS: This is my opinion and others who may partially agree with me shouldn't be conflated with the opinions I expressed here.
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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Bundokji
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Bundokji » Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:12 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote: We should be investing in green technology so we can become independent of oil, which is how Saudi Arabia spreads its particularly hostile interpretation of islam. Similarly with Qatar. We should phorbid Saudi, Iranian and Qatari money to enter our democracies to fund these hostile interpretations of islam. We should have stricter border control and only let in true war refugees from Syria, because this unchecked border policy is causing strong social tensions and the rise of nationalist right wing parties.
I don't want to deviate from the main topic, but everything is linked in a way or another. The point you raised about investing in green technology is an excellent one, i ve heard Sam Harris raising it not long ago.

If we want to be objective, fair and neutral, we should admit that there is a lot of hypocrisy when it comes to western governments actions. On the one hand, they denounce extremism and they condemn radical Islam, but on the other hand, they indirectly support it by making political and economic ties with the most radical Islamic countries (Saudi and Iran).

They don't only purchase oil from these countries, but they sell them weapons helping them to commit more atrocities. Last month, human rights watch issued a report which states that there is a "compelling evidence" that British weapons are being used by Saudi Arabia in the war on Yemen, including against civilian targets.

http://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2016/07/12 ... -war-Yemen

The hypocrisy does not stop at that, but extends to the refugees issue. Seventy seven years ago the racism in Europe caused a massive Jewish immigration to the middle east, which caused another refugee crisis among the Palestinian people. Is it a coincident that most radical Islamic terrorists mention Israel and the western support of the Jewish state almost on every single occasion when they preach their hatred?

To what extent the actions of western governments contributed to the rise of radical Islam? Of course, that would never justify extremism nor make Islam a peaceful religion, but if we agree that Muslims should play a more serious role in eliminating extremism within their own societies, should not we also agree that westerners should become more serious in opposing the actions of their governments?

The world is much smaller than we think, and when one place gets f*** up, it affects the rest of the world. It is in the best interest of the west to help modernize the Muslim world, and it would cost them much less than waging war against radicals, all in my opinion.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Modus.Ponens » Tue Aug 30, 2016 2:17 am

Bundojki,

Apart from the Israel issue I agree with pretty much everything you said. One of the largest protests in the recent UK history was against the Iraq war. The opposition was there, even if not quite for the right reasons. The intervention in Kosovo to stop a genocide against muslims doesn't get any credit. But still, a lot of what you said is true and is perhaps the reason why these politicians don't act. They might be either corrupt or even intimidated to comply after their pockets are full. But I don't have many doubts this is worsening the situation. The only sound strategy is to only intervene in the extreme case of nuclear ploriferation. Other than that I think any intervention ends up being worse. It's better to let the internet to spread anti authoritarian and secularist ideas.


But anyway, sorry for this tangent.

Back to the burkini.
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

chownah
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by chownah » Tue Aug 30, 2016 2:44 am

Back to the topic.
If we consider the banning of the burkini as a reaction to a particular situation we might see it as being a symptom of some larger problem. Radical islam can easily be seen as that larger problem even though wearing a burkini in itself is not an indication of radical islamism. This is fine and not what I want to discuss. What I think might be discussed is what are the societal attributes which might make french society a fertile ground for radical islam to take root and spread?

I offer the idea that the french version of secularism might be one of those attributes. Secularism in the US (I am not cheerleading for the US here but just using it as an example) means total seperation of church and state. In the US one aspect the idea is that the gov't can not make any law which restricts religious practices UNLESS there is some other issue of freedom compromised by that practice i.e. ritual sacrifice of virgins is not allowed etc. In the US there could not be a lawful banning of religious attire in that the attire one wears is in itself not a threat to compromise freedom and in fact a banning of any kind of attire is directly a violation of freedom. Compare this to the french idea of secularism where the gov't takes on as its role specifically the control and restriction of the public display of religious symbols and clothing associated with religions. This take on secularism itself clearly compromises freedom and in fact violates it directly. My point here is that french law directly violates people's freedoms...and...whereever you find gov't's violating people's freedoms you will find people working to overturn those laws in whatever way they are free to act. Of course it is ludicruous to see radical islam as fighting for freedoms but the sad fact is that many muslims view it that way...and the more that existing gov'ts restrict the freedom of muslim people the more many muslims will see radical islam as the only alternative which can give them back their freedom. Also, I hope that people remember here that alot if not most of the muslims against the restrictions on their freedoms are not radical islamists...at least not yet. They are mostly just people wanting to live their lives unmolested I think.

Bottom line for the above is that french secularism has at its root the repression of people's freedoms....maybe it should be changed.

Also, perhaps the majority of french people are overly proud of french culture and french ideas and perhaps this is the root of why they insist on trying to control the way things appear in the public space. This can be seen as preserving heritage which is a good thing but it also can be seen as overdone and as a product of grasping at the past and failing to adapt to the present. I am asking questions here and not asserting that what I say is definitional in any respect. In support of this idea I offer the Académie Française (The French Academy). The french gov't has The French Academy whose primary function is to maintain the purity of the french language. In thier eyes it is not appropriate for french to include for instance the word "computer"...to say "le computer" in france is a no go, you should say "ordinateur". I know that this compulsion about the french language seems to be not so important but I am offering it as a simple indication of how obsessed a large part of french society is about french culture.....how many other countries have a governmental office to maintain the purity of the their language and especially one which is actually effective in influencing written and spoken language?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acad%C3%A ... Anglicisms

Also, I want to point out that there is a more sinister side of the academy. They actively work to suppress all of the local regional languages and dialects which have existed in france for centuries right along side the french language.....the academy originated as part of the domination of the kings of france as they developed their control over the regions population; it seems the academy does not preserve ALL french culture but only the dominant french culture. It is sort of equivalent to when in the US there were laws forbidding the native american tribes from teaching their languages in their local schools. Hegemony, plain and simple.
So, I think that french hegemony can be seen as an intention (kamma) which has started to bear fruit.
chownah

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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Buddha Vacana » Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:09 am

Enforcing secularism for example in school is indeed a restraint on freedom, but I wouldn't say that every restraint on freedom is bad (which should be obvious for a Theravadin), and it has the advantage of avoiding that schools become a place of proselytism where radicalization could take place, which is the case for example in prisons, and most people accept it because they wouldn't like their child to come under an unwanted kind of peer pressure. It may fuel extremism, but for example allowing people the freedom of wearing regular bikinis on the beach can also fuel extremism (see as a contrast the dress code in Qatar). I think we should avoid provoking extremism for no good reason, but we don't have to comply either with all the annoyances extremists might feel about various things in western society. Simply put, haters gonna hate anyway.

edit:
Overall, Grim's characterization of Pew's research suggests that the "moderate" restrictions on religion in the U.S. aren't primarily abridgments of freedom; they're part of the complex puzzle of governing a pluralistic political community. The right to free exercise of religion may seem simple in principle, but in practice, it involves figuring out how one group's rights intersect with another's. On balance, that may mean more freedom, not less, is afforded to all.
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/arc ... om/283331/

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Bundokji
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Bundokji » Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:12 am

chownah wrote: My point here is that french law directly violates people's freedoms...and...whereever you find gov't's violating people's freedoms you will find people working to overturn those laws in whatever way they are free to act. Of course it is ludicruous to see radical islam as fighting for freedoms but the sad fact is that many muslims view it that way...and the more that existing gov'ts restrict the freedom of muslim people the more many muslims will see radical islam as the only alternative which can give them back their freedom. Also, I hope that people remember here that alot if not most of the muslims against the restrictions on their freedoms are not radical islamists...at least not yet. They are mostly just people wanting to live their lives unmolested I think.
This is a very interesting point, thanks for raising it. From my personal observations, restricting freedoms is not more harmful than the west being apologetic about imposing their own value system, at least in the case of Muslims.

I think we must keep in mind that authoritarianism among Muslims is not limited to politics, but it extends to families, schools, work and most aspects of social interactions, so even if a Muslim was raised in a free-democratic society, his interpretations of democracy will more likely be less mature than non-Muslims.

In a mind where democracy is mature and deeply rooted, women rights, gay rights, freedom of speech and expression ...etc are merely natural manifestations. However, an authoritarian mind will always be selective, appreciating and using democracy in a very limited and selfish ways, most likely as a tool to apply his limited view of the world.

It is no surprise that the highest court decision to suspend the burkini ban was received with mockery by many Muslims. Deep inside they don't see internal debates and legal battles as a sign of strength, but as a sign of weakness (even if they claim otherwise)

Of course there will always be exceptions, but the existence of exceptions does not mean that there is no general trend.

Few weeks ago, Donald Trump made a speech about Saddam Hussien praising him for his efficient killing of terrorists, and unfortunately he was spot on. The vast majority of people in the middle east consider him as a hero and as a martyr, and i can confirm this from first hand experience. From a purely pragmatic point of view, the ways of Saddam Hussien can be more efficient and more appreciated than western democracies. Of course, more efficient does not mean more ethical.

To sum up, democracy cannot be comprehended and genuinely embraced unless one have the ability to think clearly as an individual, a faculty which Islam succeeded in paralyzing it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUQh_4DxUrM
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

binocular
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by binocular » Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:55 am

Bundokji wrote:To sum up, democracy cannot be comprehended and genuinely embraced unless one have the ability to think clearly as an individual, a faculty which Islam succeeded in paralyzing it.
It depends on why "the ability to think clearly as an individual" is being promoted.
Sometimes, such individualism is promoted because those in positions of power don't want to take any responsibility for those they want to control.

I'm also having the impression that "the ability to think clearly as an individual" is sometimes treated like a fashion accessiore, as something that is actually very superficial.

Thinking differently than others is no guarantee for individualism, nor for clarity of thought.

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Bundokji
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Bundokji » Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:43 am

binocular wrote:
Bundokji wrote:To sum up, democracy cannot be comprehended and genuinely embraced unless one have the ability to think clearly as an individual, a faculty which Islam succeeded in paralyzing it.
It depends on why "the ability to think clearly as an individual" is being promoted.
Sometimes, such individualism is promoted because those in positions of power don't want to take any responsibility for those they want to control.

I'm also having the impression that "the ability to think clearly as an individual" is sometimes treated like a fashion accessiore, as something that is actually very superficial.

Thinking differently than others is no guarantee for individualism, nor for clarity of thought.
Thinking clearly as an individual and individualism are two different things. However, the odds of having the ability to think clearly as individual is higher in a society that value individualism.

Individualism can be manipulated as you mentioned, but developing the ability to think clearly as an individual is the best antidote to manipulation. Personally, i prefer not think about those in positions as necessarily manipulative, or more manipulative than other members of society. I am not a fan of conspiracy theory.

Individualism can lead to a fake rebellion against all forms of authority, but for those who develop the ability to think clearly as individuals, authority falls in its right place.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

binocular
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by binocular » Tue Aug 30, 2016 2:19 pm

Bundokji wrote:Individualism can be manipulated as you mentioned, but developing the ability to think clearly as an individual is the best antidote to manipulation. Personally, i prefer not think about those in positions as necessarily manipulative, or more manipulative than other members of society. I am not a fan of conspiracy theory.
Ah, I wasn't referring to some conspiracy theory. Just that people in positions of power not rarely want to control others, without taking any responsibility for them. It seems to be a frequent trait in humans.
Individualism can lead to a fake rebellion against all forms of authority, but for those who develop the ability to think clearly as individuals, authority falls in its right place.
Could you list some examples of "thinking clearly as an individual"?

I think that, quite contrary to what might be the first impression, performances like this actually require an enormous individualism, they require that each dancer thinks for herself, otherwise such a dance performance is impossible.

Just because a group of people look like a herd, or a mass, doesn't mean they aren't or cannot be individualists or think clearly as individuals.

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