Some towns in France ban burkinis

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Dan74
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Dan74 » Sun Aug 28, 2016 10:58 pm

chownah wrote:
Dan74 wrote:
While I agree that in an ideal world's everybody would be free to wear what they want, my impression is that if mainstream parties adopted this line in the current climate in France it would play into the hands of the extreme right and further inflame tensions.
This sounds like "peace in our time"....you will placate the extreme right today so as to avoid their wrath and in so doing you will promulgate a prejudicial anti-muslim law which will almost assuredly lead to a stronger anti-french extremism. And get this, you are destroying freedom in the process.
I can think of only one solution to this problem....ban all clothing from all beaches in france....actually their may be a second way....requiring everyone to wear burkinis at the beach.
chownah
It's an argument I hear from people who believe the west is too soft in dealing with the threat of Muslim jihadists.

Again for my part I would everyone wear what they like and while people are free to discuss what constitutes good manners, appropriate etc the state has no business legislating. This is in my utopia.

In reality there are other concerns. The burkini law is history and was more symbolic than anything from what I've read.

It is clear that in France and elsewhere in Europe many Muslims have neither assimilated nor really integrated even. And this is the issue. I think in Australia it is less of a problem though it exists here as well. Again many people integrate well, live as good neighbours and citizens so we should be careful not to tar everyone with the same brush. But some don't. This is the real issue that worries the mainstream. When you have a sizable group of people in your midst who hate you, and everything that you stand for. On top of it they now have a role model in ISIS. Isn't this a worry?

And yes, the broader community should work hard to be kind and help people integrate rather than push them away. But in doing so if the majority yields more and more ground that will just embolden the firebrands. This is the time to be kind and firm, rather than compassionate in an idiotic way, to borrow from Trungpa.

As others have said striking the right balance is tricky.

And in Dan's utopia everybody lives happily and respectfully side by side enjoying the incredible mosaic of cultures that is humanity. Learning from each other. In this picture I wholeheartedly agree with Kim, Mr Man and other progressive posters who uphold humanities highest values.

But we are not there. We are in a mess. And we have to deal with this mess. Which means getting our hands dirty. Compromising. Choosing the lesser evil. But never losing sight of these values. That's the tricky part.

It is easy to hold fast to ideals when we have no responsibility, when we don't make decisions with far ranging repercussions. And it is also sadly all to easy to forget about the values and the principles. The hard road is the path of doing ones best given the constraints. And working to change the constraints as much as one can.
_/|\_

Janalanda
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Janalanda » Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:02 am

Dan74 wrote: And in Dan's utopia everybody lives happily and respectfully side by side enjoying the incredible mosaic of cultures that is humanity. Learning from each other. In this picture I wholeheartedly agree with Kim, Mr Man and other progressive posters who uphold humanities highest values.
Do you actually have a muslim community living in your city ? If so, can you name a particular thing that you learned from them and benefited your life?

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Dan74
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Dan74 » Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:19 am

Janalanda wrote:
Dan74 wrote: And in Dan's utopia everybody lives happily and respectfully side by side enjoying the incredible mosaic of cultures that is humanity. Learning from each other. In this picture I wholeheartedly agree with Kim, Mr Man and other progressive posters who uphold humanities highest values.
Do you actually have a muslim community living in your city ? If so, can you name a particular thing that you learned from them and benefited your life?
It's off-topic here (maybe you could start a new topic?). Briefly though there is a large Muslim community here. An old friend and former colleague is Tunisian. And last summer we met a very friendly group of fellow campers of Indian Muslim origin who shared their Kheema with us (which was yumm). I met very devout Muslims when i did prison chaplaincy and they were always very helpful and fair.

My experience has been of generous outgoing and helpful people, and great food. Hope some of that rubs off!
_/|\_

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Bundokji
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Bundokji » Mon Aug 29, 2016 6:24 am

Dan74 wrote:
chownah wrote:
Dan74 wrote:
While I agree that in an ideal world's everybody would be free to wear what they want, my impression is that if mainstream parties adopted this line in the current climate in France it would play into the hands of the extreme right and further inflame tensions.
This sounds like "peace in our time"....you will placate the extreme right today so as to avoid their wrath and in so doing you will promulgate a prejudicial anti-muslim law which will almost assuredly lead to a stronger anti-french extremism. And get this, you are destroying freedom in the process.
I can think of only one solution to this problem....ban all clothing from all beaches in france....actually their may be a second way....requiring everyone to wear burkinis at the beach.
chownah
It's an argument I hear from people who believe the west is too soft in dealing with the threat of Muslim jihadists.

Again for my part I would everyone wear what they like and while people are free to discuss what constitutes good manners, appropriate etc the state has no business legislating. This is in my utopia.

In reality there are other concerns. The burkini law is history and was more symbolic than anything from what I've read.

It is clear that in France and elsewhere in Europe many Muslims have neither assimilated nor really integrated even. And this is the issue. I think in Australia it is less of a problem though it exists here as well. Again many people integrate well, live as good neighbours and citizens so we should be careful not to tar everyone with the same brush. But some don't. This is the real issue that worries the mainstream. When you have a sizable group of people in your midst who hate you, and everything that you stand for. On top of it they now have a role model in ISIS. Isn't this a worry?

And yes, the broader community should work hard to be kind and help people integrate rather than push them away. But in doing so if the majority yields more and more ground that will just embolden the firebrands. This is the time to be kind and firm, rather than compassionate in an idiotic way, to borrow from Trungpa.

As others have said striking the right balance is tricky.

And in Dan's utopia everybody lives happily and respectfully side by side enjoying the incredible mosaic of cultures that is humanity. Learning from each other. In this picture I wholeheartedly agree with Kim, Mr Man and other progressive posters who uphold humanities highest values.

But we are not there. We are in a mess. And we have to deal with this mess. Which means getting our hands dirty. Compromising. Choosing the lesser evil. But never losing sight of these values. That's the tricky part.

It is easy to hold fast to ideals when we have no responsibility, when we don't make decisions with far ranging repercussions. And it is also sadly all to easy to forget about the values and the principles. The hard road is the path of doing ones best given the constraints. And working to change the constraints as much as one can.
:anjali: :anjali: :anjali:
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Kim OHara
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Kim OHara » Mon Aug 29, 2016 6:49 am

binocular wrote:
Kim OHara wrote:The Christian church/es have moved far further on issues like this than they are keen to admit, and far further than some of you seem to appreciate. Islam can do the same and I'm willing to bet that it will. Reluctantly, of course, and it has further to go, but exactly the same forces are at work.
The Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church is the same. The doctrine has not changed.
The fact that people are becoming more lax about it does not change the fact that the doctrine is still there.
And as long as it is there, this long we have to be prepared that people will resort to it if they see so fit.
i.e. religion can be used as a pretext for racism.
Didn't we all work that out years ago?

:coffee:
Kim

binocular
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by binocular » Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:48 am

Kim OHara wrote:
binocular wrote:The Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church is the same. The doctrine has not changed.
The fact that people are becoming more lax about it does not change the fact that the doctrine is still there.
And as long as it is there, this long we have to be prepared that people will resort to it if they see so fit.
i.e. religion can be used as a pretext for racism.
Didn't we all work that out years ago?
What pretext?
Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

Janalanda
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Janalanda » Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:15 am

Dan74 wrote: It's off-topic here (maybe you could start a new topic?). Briefly though there is a large Muslim community here. An old friend and former colleague is Tunisian. And last summer we met a very friendly group of fellow campers of Indian Muslim origin who shared their Kheema with us (which was yumm). I met very devout Muslims when i did prison chaplaincy and they were always very helpful and fair.

My experience has been of generous outgoing and helpful people, and great food. Hope some of that rubs off!
So you learned nothing from them? Just had some fun with some nice people and ate some good food ? I'm sure you can find nice people in your own country to spend time with. As for the food, you don't need 25% of your city to be muslim in order to eat lebanese food. You can always go to one of those lebanese, mexican etc. restaurants.

The reason I asked was to show that multiculturalism has no value over homogeneity. The lie we have been fed was that we'll learn something from these new people, something that will benefit our lives, something we could never learn without having them in close proximity. But if you're not the owner of a big corporation in search of cheap labor, there is not much to benefit you from multiculturalism.

How about this utopia: everybody stays in their own homogeneous countries and lives happily over there ? If you learned nothing from them, can you at least name another advantage you enjoy because of having them in close proximity ? Europeans recently started realizing this. They may make mistakes from time to time like in the case discussed in this topic, but they at least realized there are many problems multiculturalism brings and no benefits to justify having these problems.

PS: If you want to move into an indian reservation, they'll never let you in because you would be destroying their unique, homogeneous culture. You would actually be destroying diversity of world cultures, not promoting it. Think about this for a moment when you have time.
Last edited by Janalanda on Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Mr Man
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Mr Man » Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:16 am

Dan74 wrote:
It is clear that in France and elsewhere in Europe many Muslims have neither assimilated nor really integrated even. And this is the issue. I think in Australia it is less of a problem though it exists here as well. Again many people integrate well, live as good neighbours and citizens so we should be careful not to tar everyone with the same brush. But some don't. This is the real issue that worries the mainstream. When you have a sizable group of people in your midst who hate you, and everything that you stand for. On top of it they now have a role model in ISIS. Isn't this a worry?

And yes, the broader community should work hard to be kind and help people integrate rather than push them away. But in doing so if the majority yields more and more ground that will just embolden the firebrands. This is the time to be kind and firm, rather than compassionate in an idiotic way, to borrow from Trungpa.
In the UK we have the problem of radicalization which is distinct from cultural integration/assimilation. It would seem that the majority of those who are susceptible to this are UK born (superficially fairly well integrated) and a fair few are converts. The govt. has been (I believe) working hard, with some success/failure to deal with this. Partly through intervention with those who are perceived to be susceptible and partly through trying to stop those who disseminate "extremism". Unfortunately there is fuel constantly being poured on the fire through social injustice and global conflict.


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Here is a clip of a "Social experiment"

https://youtu.be/pH6rYwAgABY

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Mr Man
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Mr Man » Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:18 am

Janalanda wrote:
Dan74 wrote: It's off-topic here (maybe you could start a new topic?). Briefly though there is a large Muslim community here. An old friend and former colleague is Tunisian. And last summer we met a very friendly group of fellow campers of Indian Muslim origin who shared their Kheema with us (which was yumm). I met very devout Muslims when i did prison chaplaincy and they were always very helpful and fair.

My experience has been of generous outgoing and helpful people, and great food. Hope some of that rubs off!
So you learned nothing from them? Just had some fun with some nice people and ate some good food ? I'm sure you can find nice people in your own country to spend time with. As for the food, you don't need 25% of your city to be muslim in order to eat lebanese food. You can always go to one of those lebanese, mexican etc. restaurants.

The reason I asked was to show that multiculturalism has no value over homogeneity. The lie we have been fed was that we'll learn something from these new people, something that will benefit our lives, something we could never learn without having them in close proximity. But if you're not the owner of a big corporation in search of cheap labor, there is not much to benefit you from multiculturalism.

How about this utopia: everybody stays in their own homogeneous countries and lives happily over there ? If you learned nothing from them, can you at least name another advantage you enjoy because of having them in close proximity ? Europeans recently started realizing this. They may make mistakes from time to time like in the case discussed in this topic, but they at least realized there are many problems multiculturalism brings and no benefits to justify having these problems.
And where does your practice of Buddhism come into this?

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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Meggo » Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:10 am

Janalanda wrote: The reason I asked was to show that multiculturalism has no value over homogeneity. The lie we have been fed was that we'll learn something from these new people, something that will benefit our lives, something we could never learn without having them in close proximity. But if you're not the owner of a big corporation in search of cheap labor, there is not much to benefit you from multiculturalism.

How about this utopia: everybody stays in their own homogeneous countries and lives happily over there ? If you learned nothing from them, can you at least name another advantage you enjoy because of having them in close proximity ? Europeans recently started realizing this. They may make mistakes from time to time like in the case discussed in this topic, but they at least realized there are many problems multiculturalism brings and no benefits to justify having these problems.

PS: If you want to move into an indian reservation, they'll never let you in because you would be destroying their unique, homogeneous culture. You would actually be destroying diversity of world cultures, not promoting it. Think about this for a moment when you have time.
Oh, you can learn a lot right here from your reaction to multiculturalism. You can learn about yourself and your upbringing. About your anxieties and your weaknesses. If you really want to have a so called homogeneous culture than really start dividing people according to their psychological make up and not how they look like or where they are from. You sound like a russian football hooligan talking about how much you hate english football hooligans while not realizing that you are exactly the same.

Janalanda
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Janalanda » Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:21 am

Ok, I'm the devil, I'm like a russian hooligan. But can you name something that you supposedly learned from having big numbers of muslims in close proximity ? It's easy to make personal attacks. But apparently it's very hard to name one single thing you learned from having muslims in close proximity.

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Dan74
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Dan74 » Mon Aug 29, 2016 10:29 am

Janalanda, I said

My experience has been of generous outgoing and helpful people, and great food. Hope some of that rubs off!
I don't think it's hard to see that if we are open we learn the good qualities from the people we interact with.

But in any case I dont have a problem with people of different ethnic and religious backgrounds living here. For starters I'd be a hypocrite since I came from elsewhere. I'm glad the locals were largely friendly and helpful - makes a huge difference in trying to settle in a foreign country.

And it makes Melbourne the fun diverse place that it is - the world's most livable city in many surveys - the multitude of cultures and traditions all sharing this place.

And this is apart from our basic obligation to shelter people freeing war and persecution. Do you suggest we just ignore them and let them die?
_/|\_

Meggo
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Meggo » Mon Aug 29, 2016 10:49 am

Janalanda wrote:Ok, I'm the devil, I'm like a russian hooligan. But can you name something that you supposedly learned from having big numbers of muslims in close proximity ? It's easy to make personal attacks. But apparently it's very hard to name one single thing you learned from having muslims in close proximity.
You don't get it. Even if muslims were as simple and bad as you think (or want) them to be, then as a man, i would say, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. What has gravity done for you? Look at the bodies of astronauts who stayed in 0-g for a long time, then you will know. What can muslims do for you? You can go to them and talk about your presumptions. If you really think your position is better then try to persuade "them". You will learn a lot about people, their presumption, their worldview, their psychological strategies and how to influence them. If it really is ethics which is driving your behaviour your fear shouldn't be your main motivation. Go out change the world for the better instead of running away or forcing somebody else to run away from you. Thats the childs way.

Janalanda
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Janalanda » Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:13 am

@meggo: Why are you avoiding to answer my simple question ? I already understood that I'm a right wing intolerant extremist driven by fear etc. I'm the devil, I got it. I'm used to people having prejudice and making all kind of assumptions about you so I won't make a case about that. But can you answer my simple question ?
And it makes Melbourne the fun diverse place that it is - the world's most livable city in many surveys - the multitude of cultures and traditions all sharing this place.
But now it's a city very similar to all the other 1000 culturally diverse cities you can find in europe. Seen a culturally diverse city is nothing new on the face of the earth. Because I'm a lover of diversity, I would like to see a different thing when traveling aboard than what I see back home.

There are many species of animals in the world, many ecosystems etc. Would you like to combine them and make a big homogeneous soup out of them all ? Would you move species of animals from one place to another en masse ? Why would you do that with cultures ? As I said, if you go to an indian reservation and ask to live there, they won't let you in. Why ? Because you would be destroying their unique culture. There are 48 different countries with different cultures in europe. How will their unique cultures be preserved when the majority will be muslims ?

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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Meggo » Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:25 am

[quote="Janalanda"]@meggo: Why are you avoiding to answer my simple question ? I already understood that I'm a right wing intolerant extremist driven by fear etc. I'm the devil, I got it. I'm used to people having prejudice and making all kind of assumptions about you so I won't make a case about that. But can you answer my simple question ?
[quote]

I already answered your question and you know that. I told you that problems are there to make you stronger. You don't want to accept that, so stagnate now and degenerate over time. Have fun in your little isolated safe space.

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