Some towns in France ban burkinis

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Bundokji
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Bundokji » Sun Aug 28, 2016 11:59 am

Mr Man wrote:If Burkinis are being worn on the beach in such a way as to allow a move toward more integration wouldn't that be a good thing? Sharing a space and enjoying similar activities. I think that observing others and focusing on what we have in common can be a good thing. Also acknowledging that others are not under an obligation to meet our own expectations.
Of course, more integration is a good thing and it reduces tension within society. However, when people live in a particular society, they surrender their freedoms and the government re-distribute those freedoms by making laws, this is the main rationale behind the idea of a "social contract".

In a democracy, people elect members who make laws on their behalf. Ideally, members of parliaments don't represent themselves, but those who voted for them hence they should be sensitive to what the average citizen want. The vast majority of French people support the burkini ban according to a recent poll.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/08 ... k-burkini/

Even though the majority should not oppress minorities in a free society, that does not mean that minorities have no responsibility whatsoever in building trust with the majority, by being sensitive and respectful of the collective identity even if they don't agree with it. If members of a particular minority starts to cause problems, the collective mindset will become hostile towards them regardless of the amount of ideals they get bombarded with.

Its quite true that people are under no obligation to meet our own expectations, but this is applicable on the individual level only. On the collective level, people has to adhere to the laws of the land which is set by the majority in a democracy. If they choose to disobey the law, there will be consequences specified by the law (the social contract).

In my opinion, a combination of idealism and realism is a good thing. If we are overly idealists, we become naive to the extent of losing the ability to make simple observational distinctions and we become so sympathetic toward minorities at the expense of the majority and the truth. One good example is denying any meaningful differences between cultures and ethnic groups. The other extreme is to completely ignore the needs of minorities to be protected and to be given the freedoms they deserve and to allow them to enjoy their uniqueness, this is where herd instinct becomes in full control. Between the two extremes the truth is lost in my opinion!

Finally, the following article attempts to make distinctions between the three religions which i found interesting:

http://www.meforum.org/2159/are-judaism ... t-as-islam
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

binocular
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by binocular » Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:05 pm

Mr Man wrote:If Burkinis are being worn on the beach in such a way as to allow a move toward more integration wouldn't that be a good thing? Sharing a space and enjoying similar activities. I think that observing others and focusing on what we have in common can be a good thing. Also acknowledging that others are not under an obligation to meet our own expectations.
If we would go to a Muslim country, we would have to play by their rules -- or face the consequences.

But they don't have to play by ours when they come here?

robertk wrote:I think Kim's point might be that burning at the stake , for instance, seems to have gone by the board in Christianity?
Most Christian denominations still hold to the doctrine of eternal damnation. They have not given up on those doctrines.

While they generally don't burn people at the stakes anymore, their opposition is still there, still as intense, just more sublimated.


Did you know about this:
Pope John Paul II's recent book, Crossing the Threshold of Hope, is a collection of reflections primarily on issues of Christian faith, but the book also features the Pope's assessment of other religions, including a short chapter on Buddhism. The Pontiff's words in this chapter are far from appreciative. The release of the book in Sri Lanka on the eve of the Pope's visit to this country this past January stirred up waves of indignation in the Buddhist community that spread as far as the Vatican. The Buddhist prelates announced that they would not attend an inter-religious meeting requested by the Pope unless he formally retracted his unfavorable remarks about Buddhism. Although on arrival the Pope tried to appease the feelings of Buddhist leaders by declaring his esteem for their religion, even quoting the Dhammapada, he fell short of proffering a full apology, and this did not satisfy the Sangha elders.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_30.html

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Bundokji
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Bundokji » Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:09 pm

Further to my previous post, i can help but remember the following parable by Arthur Schopenhauer. In order to live within a group, a part of our personal freedoms has to be sacrificed:

"A number of porcupines huddled together for warmth on a cold day in winter; but, as they began to prick one another with their quills, they were obliged to disperse. However the cold drove them together again, when just the same thing happened. At last, after many turns of huddling and dispersing, they discovered that they would be best off by remaining at a little distance from one another. In the same way the need of society drives the human porcupines together, only to be mutually repelled by the many prickly and disagreeable qualities of their nature. The moderate distance which they at last discover to be the only tolerable condition of intercourse, is the code of politeness and fine manners; and those who transgress it are roughly told — in the English phrase — to keep their distance. By this arrangement the mutual need of warmth is only very moderately satisfied; but then people do not get pricked. A man who has some heat in himself prefers to remain outside, where he will neither prick other people nor get pricked himself"
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Kim OHara
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Kim OHara » Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:10 pm

robertk wrote:
binocular wrote:
Kim OHara wrote:That would all be fine except that Christianity did (and theoretically still does) have such a doctrine but has managed to (almost completely) give it up without falling apart.
What are you talking about?

First you say that Christianity has such a doctrine, but then you say that it has given it up --?
I think Kim's point might be that burning at the stake , for instance, seems to have gone by the board in Christianity?
Yes, but far more than that.
chownah wrote:
robertk wrote:Good point Kim.

Deuteronomy 13:6-9 "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people"
This is from the portion of the bible where the history of the jews is presented as the precursor to the appearance of jesus who by christians is taken to be someone who fulfilled the prophecies of the ancient jews. This has nothing to do with christian doctrines....it is about the doctrine of the jews which was held a long long time before christianity came to be. With regards to the scenario presented in deuteronomy the likely doctrine presented by jesus might be to love your enemy.
chownah
When I was a teenager, still going to (Christian - Protestant - mainstream) church because my parents wanted me to and I didn't object very strongly, an Elder of the church put his hand firmly on the Bible (which includes, obviously, all that pre-Christian Jewish stuff) and said to me, with total sincerity, "Every word of this Book is absolute Truth," (and yes, I could hear the capital letters :tongue: ). That did more to cure me of Christianity than any other single event, but that's incidental. My point is that this (including the literal truth of the creation story) was absolutely mainstream in a liberal Western country within my own lifetime and it isn't now.
Back in the 1940s, well within my parents' lifetimes, a Catholic who married a Protestant was considered unmarried and 'living in sin' by the whole church community - and the priest could and did get up in church to say so in his sermon, and excommunicate her. These days? No way. They are just pathetically grateful that couples want a church wedding at all.
The Christian church/es have moved far further on issues like this than they are keen to admit, and far further than some of you seem to appreciate. Islam can do the same and I'm willing to bet that it will. Reluctantly, of course, and it has further to go, but exactly the same forces are at work.

:namaste:
Kim

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Mr Man
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Mr Man » Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:14 pm

binocular wrote:
Mr Man wrote:If Burkinis are being worn on the beach in such a way as to allow a move toward more integration wouldn't that be a good thing? Sharing a space and enjoying similar activities. I think that observing others and focusing on what we have in common can be a good thing. Also acknowledging that others are not under an obligation to meet our own expectations.
If we would go to a Muslim country, we would have to play by their rules -- or face the consequences.

But they don't have to play by ours when they come here?
Where is here in you case binocular? In the UK everyone is by and large obliged to play by our rules (there a a few exceptions). Also in a fair few countries non-muslims are not obliged to play by their rules.

binocular
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by binocular » Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:17 pm

Kim OHara wrote:The Christian church/es have moved far further on issues like this than they are keen to admit, and far further than some of you seem to appreciate. Islam can do the same and I'm willing to bet that it will. Reluctantly, of course, and it has further to go, but exactly the same forces are at work.
The Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church is the same. The doctrine has not changed.
The fact that people are becoming more lax about it does not change the fact that the doctrine is still there.
And as long as it is there, this long we have to be prepared that people will resort to it if they see so fit.

Coleman Hansen
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Coleman Hansen » Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:21 pm

Mr Man wrote:If Burkinis are being worn on the beach in such a way as to allow a move toward more integration wouldn't that be a good thing?
There is a debate in France about assimilation and integration. It is an old, very old debate.
Integration is a very Anglo-Saxon concept; while assimilation is more of a French concept.
Integration is incorporating a racial or religious group into a community.
Assimilation is making people of different backgrounds come to see themselves as part of a larger national family, with no special distinction or quality.
French see the world as a mosaic of different countries with different cultures. Anglo-Saxon see a unified world, where every countries will have the same melting pot. It is a matter of point of view.

This is why, in France, outside religious signs are not allowed in the classroom, for instance, (crosses, hijab, kippa, etc.) They are viewed as a factious display.

On a lighter note, I read yesterday that a French woman has been attacked by a muslim family, because she was bathing herself topless.
"If we leave things like that happen, what will happen of this country?" said one guy, as he commented online about the newspaper article.
I thought it was a pretty funny remark.
French seem to be more concerned by this issue, than about a possible 4th world war.

Here again a funny picture of what is believed to be the next president of France; having a walk on a public beach with his wife this summer. The guy doesn't seem too shocked at all. He just answers nicely to the other fellow who seems to have greeted them. Just a little bit amused, maybe. People around do not seem to mind either.
http://bit.ly/2c645Bl
French, German and Greeks have in Europe, to my knowledge, this easiness with the nude, that some other countries don't have.
No comment.

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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by binocular » Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:22 pm

Mr Man wrote:Where is here in you case binocular? In the UK everyone is by and large obliged to play by our rules (there a a few exceptions). Also in a fair few countries non-muslims are not obliged to play by their rules.
I'm in Europe.
The Muslims in France apparently think they don't have to play by French rules.

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Mr Man
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Mr Man » Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:45 pm

Bundokji wrote: Of course, more integration is a good thing and it reduces tension within society. However, when people live in a particular society, they surrender their freedoms and the government re-distribute those freedoms by making laws, this is the main rationale behind the idea of a "social contract".
I'm not convinced that the Burkini Law was a good law or a well thought out law.
Bundokji wrote: In a democracy, people elect members who make laws on their behalf. Ideally, members of parliaments don't represent themselves, but those who voted for them hence they should be sensitive to what the average citizen want. The vast majority of French people support the burkini ban according to a recent poll.
If the majority of French people do support the ban I think that is a sad thing. Of course the Govt. has to be responsive to the genuine will of the people.

At a slight tangent I saw today that 87% of the Thai population support General Prayut for Thai PM, with the comment "a fairly low rating for a dictator" - made me smile.
Bundokji wrote: Even though the majority should not oppress minorities in a free society, that does not mean that minorities have no responsibility whatsoever in building trust with the majority, by being sensitive and respectful of the collective identity even if they don't agree with it.

Yes, I agree
Bundokji wrote: Its quite true that people are under no obligation to meet our own expectations, but this is applicable on the individual level only. On the collective level, people has to adhere to the laws of the land which is set by the majority in a democracy. If they choose to disobey the law, there will be consequences specified by the law (the social contract).


I am happy to live in what I perceive to be a fairly broad society. In the UK recently we have had a couple of prominent supporters of values which are extreme jailed. No doubt there are others who reside or visit who should not be allowed to carry on.

At the same time I don't have a problem with parents at my children's school, as an example, who are culturally, intellectually and in terms of dress, quite different to me. We can communicate in a friendly way. I can observe that they love there children and they can observe mine.
Bundokji wrote: In my opinion, a combination of idealism and realism is a good thing. If we are overly idealists, we become naive to the extent of losing the ability to make simple observational distinctions and we become so sympathetic toward minorities at the expense of the majority and the truth. One good example is denying any meaningful differences between cultures and ethnic groups. The other extreme is to completely ignore the needs of minorities to be protected and to be given the freedoms they deserve and to allow them to enjoy their uniqueness, this is where herd instinct becomes in full control. Between the two extremes the truth is lost in my opinion!
I agree. Getting the balance right is not always easy.

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Mr Man
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Mr Man » Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:48 pm

binocular wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Where is here in you case binocular? In the UK everyone is by and large obliged to play by our rules (there a a few exceptions). Also in a fair few countries non-muslims are not obliged to play by their rules.
I'm in Europe.
The Muslims in France apparently think they don't have to play by French rules.
How many of the Muslims in France don't think they have to play by the French rules?

binocular
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by binocular » Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:57 pm

Mr Man wrote:How many of the Muslims in France don't think they have to play by the French rules?
All those insisting in their own ways and not integrating into French society.
It's not clear what percentage they are, or how exactly these numbers matter.

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Dan74
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Dan74 » Sun Aug 28, 2016 2:03 pm

What of the situation on the ground??

Many good points and sensible things have been said but unless we understand the situation on the ground, what good are they??
_/|\_

chownah
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by chownah » Sun Aug 28, 2016 2:28 pm

Dan74 wrote:
While I agree that in an ideal world's everybody would be free to wear what they want, my impression is that if mainstream parties adopted this line in the current climate in France it would play into the hands of the extreme right and further inflame tensions.
While I agree that in an ideal world black students would be admitted into the university of mississippi, my impression is that if the government of the state of mississippi adopted this line in the current climate in the state of mississippi it would play into the hands of leftist extremists and further inflame tensions.
chownah

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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by chownah » Sun Aug 28, 2016 3:48 pm

Dan74 wrote:
While I agree that in an ideal world's everybody would be free to wear what they want, my impression is that if mainstream parties adopted this line in the current climate in France it would play into the hands of the extreme right and further inflame tensions.
This sounds like "peace in our time"....you will placate the extreme right today so as to avoid their wrath and in so doing you will promulgate a prejudicial anti-muslim law which will almost assuredly lead to a stronger anti-french extremism. And get this, you are destroying freedom in the process.
I can think of only one solution to this problem....ban all clothing from all beaches in france....actually their may be a second way....requiring everyone to wear burkinis at the beach.
chownah

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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by chownah » Sun Aug 28, 2016 3:54 pm

Mr Man wrote:
binocular wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Where is here in you case binocular? In the UK everyone is by and large obliged to play by our rules (there a a few exceptions). Also in a fair few countries non-muslims are not obliged to play by their rules.
I'm in Europe.
The Muslims in France apparently think they don't have to play by French rules.
How many of the Muslims in France don't think they have to play by the French rules?
Good question. Another good question is how many french people don't think they have to play by the french rules?....which I ask because from what I have read it seems that alot of beaches intend to ignore the court ruling against the law banning burkinis.
chownah

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