Some towns in France ban burkinis

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Coleman Hansen
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Coleman Hansen » Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:38 am

There are many ways to harass communities, that are less public.

NYPD's Muslim surveillance violated regulations as recently as 2015: report
NYPD inspector general finds investigators consistently failed to get proper authorization for surveillance, and that 95% of reviewed cases targeted Muslims
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... violations
No comment.

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Dan74
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Dan74 » Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:50 am

Buddha Vacana wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:I'm a little confused about the logic of this ban
prime minister Manuel Valls (...) stated: "It is the expression of a political project, a counter-society, based notably on the enslavement of women."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burqini#Reactions
Valls would have said that in Thailand the outfit used, although quite similar, is not a provocative political and communitarianist assertion in a country that holds dearly 'liberty, equality, fraternity'.

The context that should be understood is best explained with the example of Anjem Choudary. Some people in the Muslim community have a vision of a Muslim hegemony that seeks to use the respect of human rights such as freedom of speech as weaknesses to be exploited in order to achieve a series of goals leading to overturning European democracies and imposing the sharia law everywhere, an agenda on which symbols like a widespread use of the burkini might be considered as a step. This is not a conspiracy theory, there are such people, most of whom are supported by wealthy countries on which European states depend for their energy supply, which all makes relating to the Muslim community rather difficult.

Another example to try to give some context is that in my town, which has a very large Muslim community, there are neighborhoods in which even non-Muslim women wear the hijab just to avoid being bullied or pressured by some of their Muslim neighbors. Also, my ex-girlfriend who is Brazilian and may be confused for a person of north-African descent sometimes has people making gesture to her when she walks even downtown to signify that she should be wearing a hijab.

These bans were a more or less understandable mistake given the current conjecture in the country, in my opinion. Luckily the State Council had a broader vision than the local courts which had confirmed the bans.
:goodpost:

A Muslim friend told me that the number of women wearing hijab has really grown in recent decades (will fact check when I ca). So its not just about Islam, it's about its specific expression.

While I agree that in an ideal world's everybody would be free to wear what they want, my impression is that if mainstream parties adopted this line in the current climate in France it would play into the hands of the extreme right and further inflame tensions.
_/|\_

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rowboat
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by rowboat » Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:14 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:Rowboat,

Are you sure there is no selective quotation going on? But, since you provided a source, no one is forced to believe a single word I said. The burden of evidence is on me. Be happy with that.
I don't know what you are trying to say.
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
Ud 5.5

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Modus.Ponens » Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:43 am

Dan,

Allow me to paraphrase Karl Popper, on free speech, in his two volumes about The Open Societies.

"Every ideology and philosophy should be allowed to be expressed in public and face public scrutiny. But there can be certain groups who do not subscribe to this rule and encourage its supporters to reply to words with bullets. In that case free speech is compromised and the state might have to intervene."

This is quoting from memory and it's probably very imprecise. But the general idea is here.

This is similar to the situation we're in here in Europe. A minority of hardliners self apoint as spokespersons (such as Anjem Choudary) or self apoint as people to "defend" the whole group by using bullets. So this possibility was forseen by the great thinkers of democracy. The very delicate issue is how to apply the law and to whom, without violating democratic values. The whole comunity is not responsible for the behaviour of hardliners. I think this law is a very clumsy attempt at solving the issue and is probably just to divert the attention of the public from the minority of hardliners who insist on compromise our democratic values.
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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mikenz66
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:58 am

Buddha Vacana wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:I'm a little confused about the logic of this ban
prime minister Manuel Valls (...) stated: "It is the expression of a political project, a counter-society, based notably on the enslavement of women."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burqini#Reactions
Valls would have said that in Thailand the outfit used, although quite similar, is not a provocative political and communitarianist assertion in a country that holds dearly 'liberty, equality, fraternity'..
Thanks, I was trying to understand whether it was religious symbolism that was the issue, which seems to be the case...

Just thinking out loud:
It's interesting that Thai's I know cover up on beaches to a large extent out of modesty (once I got used to it, foreign tourists seemed really crass, wandering around without shirts, even away from a beach...).

:anjali:
Mike

binocular
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by binocular » Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:50 am

Dan74 wrote:While I agree that in an ideal world's everybody would be free to wear what they want, my impression is that if mainstream parties adopted this line in the current climate in France it would play into the hands of the extreme right and further inflame tensions.
And if Europeans sit by idly, Europe will become a Muslim continent.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Bundokji
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Bundokji » Sun Aug 28, 2016 7:33 am

binocular wrote:
Dan74 wrote:While I agree that in an ideal world's everybody would be free to wear what they want, my impression is that if mainstream parties adopted this line in the current climate in France it would play into the hands of the extreme right and further inflame tensions.
And if Europeans sit by idly, Europe will become a Muslim continent.
The choices Europe has are difficult. On the one hand, when they try to deal with Islamic extremism they are accused of singling out a particular group and abandoning democracy. On the other hand, to pretend that all religions are the same (when in fact they are not) is foolish.

I agree with Dan's input, that the current policies might increase extremism on both sides. However, there is a positive side in my opinion. The current policies are sending strong messages to the Muslim world that there is something seriously wrong with their belief system, at least from a western point of view.

Reforming Islam is ultimately the duty of Muslims themselves, and the current discrimination against Muslims in the west is triggering debates among Muslims. Maybe there is a rise in extremism, but there is also a rise in secularism and atheism in Muslim countries which is a very healthy thing in my opinion.

Fools who paint everyone with the same brush are surprisingly useful by the mere fact that they will always exist. Their very existence should be taken into consideration by Muslims themselves that the actions of few is affecting the vast majority. To keep on denouncing them (even though legitimate) is not very productive. A more pragmatic approach should be applied in my opinion and Muslims should be more serious in reforming their religion and make it more compatible with the modern world.

P.S: My mother and three sisters wear the hijab
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

binocular
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by binocular » Sun Aug 28, 2016 8:23 am

Bundokji wrote:Reforming Islam is ultimately the duty of Muslims themselves, and the current discrimination against Muslims in the west is triggering debates among Muslims. Maybe there is a rise in extremism, but there is also a rise in secularism and atheism in Muslim countries which is a very healthy thing in my opinion.
As long as a religion has a doctrine on eternal damnation, this long its adherents will not have good will for outsiders to that religion; at best, they will just tolerate them. A religion that has the doctrine of eternal damnation stands and falls with that doctrine, because it's that doctrine that justifies said religion.
A more pragmatic approach should be applied in my opinion and Muslims should be more serious in reforming their religion and make it more compatible with the modern world.
Which amounts to asking them to give up their religion and freely choose eternal damnation.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Kim OHara
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Kim OHara » Sun Aug 28, 2016 10:08 am

binocular wrote:
Bundokji wrote:Reforming Islam is ultimately the duty of Muslims themselves, and the current discrimination against Muslims in the west is triggering debates among Muslims. Maybe there is a rise in extremism, but there is also a rise in secularism and atheism in Muslim countries which is a very healthy thing in my opinion.
As long as a religion has a doctrine on eternal damnation, this long its adherents will not have good will for outsiders to that religion; at best, they will just tolerate them. A religion that has the doctrine of eternal damnation stands and falls with that doctrine, because it's that doctrine that justifies said religion.
A more pragmatic approach should be applied in my opinion and Muslims should be more serious in reforming their religion and make it more compatible with the modern world.
Which amounts to asking them to give up their religion and freely choose eternal damnation.
That would all be fine except that Christianity did (and theoretically still does) have such a doctrine but has managed to (almost completely) give it up without falling apart.

Please, everyone, go and read Small Gods http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34484.Small_Gods and come back with a healthier perspective.

:namaste:
Kim

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robertk
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by robertk » Sun Aug 28, 2016 10:14 am

Good point Kim.

Deuteronomy 13:6-9 "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people"

chownah
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by chownah » Sun Aug 28, 2016 10:31 am

binocular wrote:
Dan74 wrote:While I agree that in an ideal world's everybody would be free to wear what they want, my impression is that if mainstream parties adopted this line in the current climate in France it would play into the hands of the extreme right and further inflame tensions.
And if Europeans sit by idly, Europe will become a Muslim continent.
Just wondering what the european response should be toward all of the refugees if it wants to avoid becoming a muslim continent. I want to be clear that I do not think that a muslim majority europe is necessarily something to be avoided.
I think the larger issue is that I believe that muslim birth rates are much higher than (for instance) christian birth rates so I guess if the world sits idly by the world will become a muslim world.....what should the world do to avoid that or better still what should the world NOT do to avoid that.
chownah

binocular
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by binocular » Sun Aug 28, 2016 10:45 am

Kim OHara wrote:That would all be fine except that Christianity did (and theoretically still does) have such a doctrine but has managed to (almost completely) give it up without falling apart.
What are you talking about?

First you say that Christianity has such a doctrine, but then you say that it has given it up --?
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Mr Man
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Mr Man » Sun Aug 28, 2016 11:18 am

If Burkinis are being worn on the beach in such a way as to allow a move toward more integration wouldn't that be a good thing? Sharing a space and enjoying similar activities. I think that observing others and focusing on what we have in common can be a good thing. Also acknowledging that others are not under an obligation to meet our own expectations.

chownah
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by chownah » Sun Aug 28, 2016 11:34 am

robertk wrote:Good point Kim.

Deuteronomy 13:6-9 "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people"
This is from the portion of the bible where the history of the jews is presented as the precursor to the appearance of jesus who by christians is taken to be someone who fulfilled the prophecies of the ancient jews. This has nothing to do with christian doctrines....it is about the doctrine of the jews which was held a long long time before christianity came to be. With regards to the scenario presented in deuteronomy the likely doctrine presented by jesus might be to love your enemy.
chownah

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robertk
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by robertk » Sun Aug 28, 2016 11:42 am

binocular wrote:
Kim OHara wrote:That would all be fine except that Christianity did (and theoretically still does) have such a doctrine but has managed to (almost completely) give it up without falling apart.
What are you talking about?

First you say that Christianity has such a doctrine, but then you say that it has given it up --?
I think Kim's point might be that burning at the stake , for instance, seems to have gone by the board in Christianity?

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