Some towns in France ban burkinis

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Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by DNS » Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:39 am

http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/25/europe/bu ... h-embassy/

This is mind boggling to me. Some French towns have banned the burkini and in at least one incident forced a Muslim woman to take some of her clothes off -- in public, at the beach. Why can't people wear what they want? They criticize Sharia law practices but become secularized versions of their own Sharia law. What's next? A police officer going to a woman on the beach with her shirt all closed or only one button on top open and then the police opening a few more buttons so cleavage shows? :rolleye:

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Dan74
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Dan74 » Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:45 am

It is extreme in its own way, but to begin to understand it, we need to look at how important it is for the French to keep the religion out of them public domain. It's almost like the gun ownership issue in the US, hard for the rest of the world to comprehend without a serious study of the relevant history.
_/|\_

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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by chownah » Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:58 am

Anti-muslim dress codes; if you want muslims to hate you this is the way to do it....
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Kim OHara » Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:59 am

Dan74 wrote:It is extreme in its own way, but to begin to understand it, we need to look at how important it is for the French to keep the religion out of them public domain.
This http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/bur ... 07811.html calls "bullshit" on that, and on several other 'justifications'. Well worth reading.
(And sharing.)

:reading:
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by SarathW » Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:18 am

One of my Sri Lankan Buddhist friend who used to work in Saudi Arabia told me that the Saudi police caned him because his wife's hair was not covered in public!
I am not supporting the action of the French police. But we have to see things in balance.
This world is full of discriminations.
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Dan74 » Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:51 am

Kim OHara wrote:
Dan74 wrote:It is extreme in its own way, but to begin to understand it, we need to look at how important it is for the French to keep the religion out of them public domain.
This http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/bur ... 07811.html calls "bullshit" on that, and on several other 'justifications'. Well worth reading.
(And sharing.)

:reading:
Kim
TBH, I didn't find it a good article. There are millions of French Muslims that supported the earlier bans, and just lumping it all with racism and colonialism is very sloppy, IMO.

I feel very uneasy about these laws but the article doesn't even attempt to address the issues. It seems that the author is a very political English student who doesn't really care what it all means for the French.

A cursory search brought up this article also condemning the laws which I found more reasonable :

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opin ... olumn.html

At the end of the day though the burkini is a very minor issue- it is hardly worn in France. It is likely to play into the hands of the extremists who seek to divide the Muslims from the rest of the population though. And that is the real tragedy.
_/|\_

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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by chownah » Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:39 am

Dan74 wrote:It is extreme in its own way, but to begin to understand it, we need to look at how important it is for the French to keep the religion out of them public domain. It's almost like the gun ownership issue in the US, hard for the rest of the world to comprehend without a serious study of the relevant history.
I am unaware of how important it is for the french to keep the religion out of the public domain. Can you explain why it is so important or bring some infomation which explains it?
You previously posted this concerning supposedly my igorance of something in another thread, "this is chownah who is both well travelled intelligent and quite sensible. What hope does the humanity-at-large have I wonder."......and since you seem hesitant to reply to my posting in that thread I think that you might be hesitent to reply to me in this thread so you might consider yourself to be replying to humanity-at-large and not to me. Just think of how you might be benefiting humanity-at-large and go ahead and reply!!!!!
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:55 am

Dan74 wrote:It is extreme in its own way, but to begin to understand it, we need to look at how important it is for the French to keep the religion out of them public domain. It's almost like the gun ownership issue in the US, hard for the rest of the world to comprehend without a serious study of the relevant history.
Yes, they are very big on secularism in France. Though telling people what not to wear seems excessive to me.
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Mr Man » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:03 am

Hi Chownah
Maybe this would give you a bit of an overview or could be a starting point: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/La%C3%AFcit%C3%A9

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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Kim OHara » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:10 am

Spiny Norman wrote:
Dan74 wrote:It is extreme in its own way, but to begin to understand it, we need to look at how important it is for the French to keep the religion out of them public domain. It's almost like the gun ownership issue in the US, hard for the rest of the world to comprehend without a serious study of the relevant history.
Yes, they are very big on secularism in France. Though telling people what not to wear seems excessive to me.
As the article I linked to says, the French are very big on secularism when it suits them.
They can and do use 'anti-Christian' as a stick to beat Muslims, but don't use 'anti-Muslim' as a stick to beat Christians.
:toilet:
It's all identity politics. The bottom line is that everyone should be free to wear (almost :rolleye: ) whatever s/he wants to.

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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:12 am

Greetings,
Spiny Norman wrote:Though telling people what not to wear seems excessive to me.
Agreed. The French have historically taken pride in the traditional cultural value of liberty, and these actions do not seem at all consistent with that fine value.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by acinteyyo » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:32 am

The problem with these particular types of clothing is, that in some European countries there exists a law against hiding your face in public space.
One living in these countries is supposed to show one's face (which is considered the main identifying feature) openly in public space and hiding one's face behind clothing is considered inappropriate and in some instances even illegal.

The issue is much more complicated than that. For many Europeans these clothing also carry an implication of oppression of women that comes from patriachic systems where those types of clothing come from, which goes against western values. (I know that this is also an oversimplification of the matter.)

Certainly we can argue about whether or not French policemen have gone too far with this burkini-event, but however ridiculous this may seem from the first impression, it is a very complicated issue and might have been legitimate.

Freedom of religion is also protected by law here, however with respect to some special types of clothing, at least in my opinion, certain restrictions like banning clothing that hide the face, might be acceptable, even if it impairs freedom of religion and partly the right of self-determination.

In Europe it is considered an important value to face each other in public space unconcealed. Of course, what is meant here, is the face and not other parts of the body.

It is not just a simple question of what people want to wear in their free time, it's a question whether or not people are willing to accept that in Europe you are supposed to show your face openly, otherwise you are creating severe suspicion and whether or not refusal of the law that prohibits concealment of one's face should be tolerated by the government.

Two days ago I listened to an interview of a German politician who gave a simple example, where the government sees difficulties.
Imagine a women wearing a burka or a niqab, which only allows a small free area for the eyes, the rest of the face is concealed, driving a car.
Two possible problems that arise from this simple example were a limited field of vision within public traffic and law enforcement and prosecution is hindered in cases of speeding for example.
This is just a simple example but it already shows, that the seemingly insignificant fact, that the woman driving a car, wears a burka, creates problems where intervention of the government might be appropriate.

best wishes, acinteyyo
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:51 am

acinteyyo wrote:The issue is much more complicated than that. For many Europeans these clothing also carry an implication of oppression of women that comes from patriachic systems where those types of clothing come from, which goes against western values. (I know that this is also an oversimplification of the matter.)
Yes, it is a complicated issue, and the regularity of Islamist terrorist attacks in France is doubtless connected with the strong emphasis on secularism there. I fear though that this burkini ban will just serve to further alienate the Muslim population in France.
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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Kabouterke » Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:01 am

Spiny Norman wrote: Yes, they are very big on secularism in France. Though telling people what not to wear seems excessive to me.
Paul Davy wrote: Agreed. The French have historically taken pride in the traditional cultural value of liberty, and these actions do not seem at all consistent with that fine value.
Dan74 wrote: ...to begin to understand it, we need to look at how important it is for the French to keep the religion out of them public domain.


I think people are overstating the role that secularism is playing in this Burkini ban. Yes, it's true that the French have a strong sense of secularism. However, there are far more secular societies (in terms of percentage of population that identifies with one religion or the other) in Europe that don't adopt France's attitude. The Benelux, Scandinavia and Scotland are three other regions/countries in Western European that have even more secular societies and aren't going around banning burkinis.

So, what's different about France? They have adopted a hard line attitude that minorities need to be totally assimilated into French society. France really puts a lot of pressure on their minorities to become French. They don't have the attitude of multicultural integration found in the UK or in the other Anglophone countries where aspects of minority culture are blended with the national culture. They don't even have the attitude of begrudgingly tolerant coexistence found in the other Western European countries, that's something like "Look, you're not one of us and you're never going to be, but as long as you play by the rules, we will tolerate you being here." Nope. Instead, France really pushes the policy of total cultural assimilation to the max and "otherness" has no place in this. Secularism is just one aspect of that attitude. And in that sense, it is perfectly consistent with the ideal of French secularism once you put this in the broader context of cultural assimilation.

I thought after the attacks, the French would realize the unintended consequences of pushing such a hard line assimilation policy. Instead, they're going around beaches and tearing people's burkinis off. Looks like they're not putting 2 and 2 together down there in France.
Last edited by Kabouterke on Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:16 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Some towns in France ban burkinis

Post by Dan74 » Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:06 am

chownah wrote:
Dan74 wrote:It is extreme in its own way, but to begin to understand it, we need to look at how important it is for the French to keep the religion out of them public domain. It's almost like the gun ownership issue in the US, hard for the rest of the world to comprehend without a serious study of the relevant history.
I am unaware of how important it is for the french to keep the religion out of the public domain. Can you explain why it is so important or bring some infomation which explains it?
You previously posted this concerning supposedly my igorance of something in another thread, "this is chownah who is both well travelled intelligent and quite sensible. What hope does the humanity-at-large have I wonder."......and since you seem hesitant to reply to my posting in that thread I think that you might be hesitent to reply to me in this thread so you might consider yourself to be replying to humanity-at-large and not to me. Just think of how you might be benefiting humanity-at-large and go ahead and reply!!!!!
chownah
Habe a look here to start maybe:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/La%C3%AFcit%C3%A9
_/|\_

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