Gender and Sexuality report

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
chownah
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Re: Gender and Sexuality report

Post by chownah » Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:41 am

Dan74 wrote:I've already engaged in meta-discussion, chownah, happy to continue in pm, but briefly I think it was about how we engage (or not) in issues such as these, read 'expert' opinion and form our own view.
You posted it, now I think you should post to explain it.
Here is what you wrote:
What a great commentary on how we read and form views, and this is chownah who is both well travelled intelligent and quite sensible. What hope does the humanity-at-large have I wonder...
I do not understand your post. Please explain what it means. Is it sarcasm?
I think you may have made a major error in judgement but I will hold back my judgement until you explain what your words mean.
chownah

chownah
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Re: Gender and Sexuality report

Post by chownah » Wed Aug 24, 2016 2:54 pm

From the link that Justsit brought:
https://thinkprogress.org/meet-the-doct ... .89kv5esbk
For this to even make sense, McHugh must ignore the notion that people who are transgender have psycho-social problems not because they are transgender, but because of how they are tormented by society because they are transgender. A large 2011 study found that transgender people are subject to rampant discrimination, poverty, harassment, and violence because they are transgender. A new study from Canada similarly found high rates of suicide attempts among transgender people, but specifically found that those suicide attempt rates significantly declined when trans people were supported by their parents, when they were able to update their legal documents to match their gender, when they endured less trans-based hate, and when they were able to transition their bodies to match their identities. In other words, McHugh has it totally backwards; it is affirming transgender people’s gender identities and supporting their traditions that helps them do best in society.
For me this is the issue which needs to be addressed....the issue of the social harrassment that lgbt people are subjected to. The medical issues are just one arena where this harrassment can be played out...and in my mind it is not even the most important one. If society by and large just accepted these people as being ok and just simply what they are then alot of people might not even feel the need for possibly risky medical interventions....but ultimately the decision is theirs.
chownah

binocular
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Re: Gender and Sexuality report

Post by binocular » Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:19 pm

chownah wrote: If society by and large just accepted these people as being ok and just simply what they are then alot of people might not even feel the need for possibly risky medical interventions....
But why should society accept these people as being okay? On the grounds of what?
Can you sketch out the ethical and philosophical framework necessary that society at large would need to have in order to accept LGBT people?

It seems to me that society at large would have to change dramatically to accept LGBT people as being okay; the change would need to be so dramatic as to be practically impossible.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

Justsit
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Re: Gender and Sexuality report

Post by Justsit » Wed Aug 24, 2016 4:19 pm

On the grounds that "these people" are human beings?

With the same thoughts and feelings and hopes and dreams as everyone else, who just want to be left alone to live their lives?

chownah
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Re: Gender and Sexuality report

Post by chownah » Wed Aug 24, 2016 4:23 pm

binocular wrote:
chownah wrote: If society by and large just accepted these people as being ok and just simply what they are then alot of people might not even feel the need for possibly risky medical interventions....
But why should society accept these people as being okay? On the grounds of what?
Can you sketch out the ethical and philosophical framework necessary that society at large would need to have in order to accept LGBT people?

It seems to me that society at large would have to change dramatically to accept LGBT people as being okay; the change would need to be so dramatic as to be practically impossible.
I first learned about gay rights back in the'70s (in the US) and I can tell you that societal attitudes have changed a huge amount since then. I now live in thailand and although lgbt people still face hostility from some people they are much more integrated into society as a whole. Some people don't like them but mostly people seem to be pretty accepting. You see lgbt people working regular jobs and not having to hide their identity even in places like tesco-lotus which is a big international supermarket chain. You see lgbt people on tv on game shows and in discussions of entertainment, media, fashion, etc. You see shows with characters who are lgbt and even some which deal directly with gay relationships. There are trans beauty pageants which air on prime time tv. So, it is possible that it can happen.
You ask on what grounds should society accept these people....I think just simply on the grounds that they are by and large pretty much the same as everyone else. The main difference is just that they choose different partners than most people do.
chownah

binocular
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Re: Gender and Sexuality report

Post by binocular » Wed Aug 24, 2016 4:42 pm

Justsit wrote:On the grounds that "these people" are human beings?
With the same thoughts and feelings and hopes and dreams as everyone else, who just want to be left alone to live their lives?
chownah wrote:You ask on what grounds should society accept these people....I think just simply on the grounds that they are by and large pretty much the same as everyone else.
Obviously, for example, the Christians who believe that homosexuality is an abomination, see no grounds for accepting LGBT people, at least not fully.
So I'm wondering what it would take for those Christians to change their minds.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

Justsit
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Re: Gender and Sexuality report

Post by Justsit » Wed Aug 24, 2016 6:11 pm

My experience has been that people of all (or no) denominations fear the unknown and often hate what the do not understand.

As for Christians who believe homosexuality is an abomination, they will likely not change. However, at least here in the US, they are a minority.

What often does promote change is having some kind of social interaction first before discovering someone's personal background. Say you meet someone at work, have conversation, you like them. Then you later discover that person is gay, or trans, or whatever. It is more difficult to maintain prejudice against a group when you have already had a positive experience with the individual.

I've found that, particularly in the case of transgender persons since that's what we're discussing, some people are entirely ready to condemn an entire group without having actually met a single representative of that group. Personally, I don't expect people to understand why someone might want to gender transition, or even to like it, but I would hope that we can maintain mutual respect based on our common humanity.

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Bundokji
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Re: Gender and Sexuality report

Post by Bundokji » Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:47 pm

Justsit wrote:My experience has been that people of all (or no) denominations fear the unknown and often hate what the do not understand.

As for Christians who believe homosexuality is an abomination, they will likely not change. However, at least here in the US, they are a minority.

What often does promote change is having some kind of social interaction first before discovering someone's personal background. Say you meet someone at work, have conversation, you like them. Then you later discover that person is gay, or trans, or whatever. It is more difficult to maintain prejudice against a group when you have already had a positive experience with the individual.

I've found that, particularly in the case of transgender persons since that's what we're discussing, some people are entirely ready to condemn an entire group without having actually met a single representative of that group. Personally, I don't expect people to understand why someone might want to gender transition, or even to like it, but I would hope that we can maintain mutual respect based on our common humanity.
I agree with your input but i would add: understanding should be from both sides. Not every single human being who is against gay marriage or gender neutral toilets is necessarily a bad person. Also helping the LGBT community to understand that you still can live a good and decent life even if not everyone accept you is not less important than fighting for "equal rights" in my opinion.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Kim OHara
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Re: Gender and Sexuality report

Post by Kim OHara » Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:21 pm

Justsit wrote:My experience has been that people of all (or no) denominations fear the unknown and often hate what the do not understand.

... What often does promote change is having some kind of social interaction first before discovering someone's personal background. Say you meet someone at work, have conversation, you like them. Then you later discover that person is gay, or trans, or whatever. It is more difficult to maintain prejudice against a group when you have already had a positive experience with the individual.

I've found that, particularly in the case of transgender persons since that's what we're discussing, some people are entirely ready to condemn an entire group without having actually met a single representative of that group. ...
:goodpost:
Absolutely true, and critical to all social justice issues.
It may affect trans people more than others because there are so few of them and they often take care to keep their trans status under the radar for obvious reasons. I know one trans person who I know is trans. How many others do I know without knowing they have made the change, I wonder?
I would hope that we can maintain mutual respect based on our common humanity.
:candle:

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Gender and Sexuality report

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:29 pm

binocular wrote:
chownah wrote: If society by and large just accepted these people as being ok and just simply what they are then alot of people might not even feel the need for possibly risky medical interventions....
But why should society accept these people as being okay? On the grounds of what?
Can you sketch out the ethical and philosophical framework necessary that society at large would need to have in order to accept LGBT people?

It seems to me that society at large would have to change dramatically to accept LGBT people as being okay; the change would need to be so dramatic as to be practically impossible.
Whether or not LGTB people are suffering from a mental illness, or whether or not being LGTB is just nebulously caused by being "not ok", is an irrelevant concern because LGTB individuals deserve the same basic respect and dignity as the rest of us.

No one advocates for discrimination against people with learning disabilities or autism. If LGTB orientation is a mental illness, or is in any way an inferior existence, or is caused by any variation of simply "not being ok", it would be applying a horrible double-standard to advocate discrimination.

LGTB peoples' lives cause no harm or damage to others or societies.
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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mikenz66
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Re: Gender and Sexuality report

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:34 pm

binocular wrote:
chownah wrote: If society by and large just accepted these people as being ok and just simply what they are then alot of people might not even feel the need for possibly risky medical interventions....
But why should society accept these people as being okay? On the grounds of what?
Can you sketch out the ethical and philosophical framework necessary that society at large would need to have in order to accept LGBT people?

It seems to me that society at large would have to change dramatically to accept LGBT people as being okay; the change would need to be so dramatic as to be practically impossible.
Not everywhere. We have laws here about discrimination against people on the grounds of gender or orientation, and it's no longer much of a barrier to people being elected to our government bodies.

:anjali:
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Kim OHara
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Re: Gender and Sexuality report

Post by Kim OHara » Thu Sep 08, 2016 12:35 am

Same here in Australia:
(1) Not only openly gay but female and Asian - what a combination of political negatives! - and a wonderfully positive, balanced contributor to our public life. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_Wong
Penelope Ying-Yen "Penny" Wong (born 5 November 1968) is an Australian politician who has represented South Australia in the Senate since 2002, and is the current Leader of the Opposition in the Senate. Wong is a member of the Labor Party and was a member of the Federal Cabinet in both the Gillard Government and the first and second Rudd governments.
Born in Malaysia to an Australian mother and Malaysian father, Wong was educated at Scotch College in Adelaide, and then attended the University of Adelaide, graduating with Bachelor of Arts and Bachelor of Laws degrees. Prior to entering Federal parliament, Wong worked as a lawyer and political advisor.[1] Wong is the first Asian-born member of an Australian cabinet.[2] She is the first female openly-LGBTI Australian federal parliamentarian as well as federal government cabinet minister and supports marriage equality in Australia.[3][4]
(2) Founder and leader of our Greens party. Enormously influential in our environmental movement.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Brown
Robert James "Bob" Brown (born 27 December 1944) is an Australian former politician, medical doctor, and environmentalist who is a former Senator, and former Parliamentary Leader of the Australian Greens. Brown was elected to the Australian Senate on the Tasmanian Greens ticket, joining with sitting Greens Western Australia senator Dee Margetts to form the first group of Australian Greens senators following the 1996 federal election. He was re-elected in 2001 and in 2007. He was the first openly gay member of the Parliament of Australia, and the first openly gay leader of an Australian political party.
On 13 April 2012, Brown resigned as leader of the Greens and indicated his intention to resign from the Senate ...
There are many more at all levels of government and in all major parties.

:namaste:
Kim

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mikenz66
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Re: Gender and Sexuality report

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:57 am

And New Zealand recognises same-sex marriages... Quite a few Australians come over here to get married...

I've also seen in Thailand, and from Thai people here, a good deal of tolerance of LGBT people.

:anjali:
Mike

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retrofuturist
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Re: Gender and Sexuality report

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:26 am

Greetings,
Robert James "Bob" Brown (born 27 December 1944) is an Australian former politician, medical doctor, and...
Dead set legend.

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Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

binocular
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Re: Gender and Sexuality report

Post by binocular » Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:00 am

Coëmgenu wrote:LGTB peoples' lives cause no harm or damage to others or societies.
Some people think that the presence of LGBT people disrupts social harmony -- and as such, is damaging to others and society.

This, at least, is how I would summarize some of the anti-LGBT stances.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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