POTUS 2016, part 3

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Who would you like to see winning the presidency of the U.S.?

Hillary Clinton - (Dem.)
38
47%
Donald Trump - Mike Pence (Rep.)
21
26%
Gary Johnson - Bill Weld (Libertarian)
8
10%
Jill Stein (Green)
14
17%
 
Total votes: 81

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Buddha Vacana
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Postby Buddha Vacana » Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:16 am

alan wrote:I'd call it an alternate universe. One where facts have no meaning.

Indeed "alternate" seems more accurate.

But actually, I have come to realize how much Trump supporters love facts, and are very sharp about them... as long as they reinforce their immutable opinion on what reality is and who people are. Take for example this article: Trump fires back at Bill Clinton over election comments, which contains the following analysis showing pretty accurately the Clintons' hypocrisy:

Image

But the interesting thing is that this very sharp and accurate criticism is used as a smoke screen to divert the attention of the readers from an incomparably worse hypocrisy: the fact that Trump, given the very narrow margins by which he swung the key states, owes his electoral win to a large scale media campaign about a purported additional investigation on Clinton's email, emphasized among others by one of his close supporters, Giuliani, which turned out in recent days to have no grounds in reality.

In short, Trump won because he and his allies lied about how corrupt his opponent was and managed to get their lies backed by the FBI. But the diversion still works perfectly well with right-wing leaning readers. Which goes to show how accurate this analysis by Alan Curtis is (thanks to Mr Man for pointing out this video:)

phpBB [video]

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Mr Man
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Postby Mr Man » Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:21 am

Does Trump still want to "Drain the swamp"

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Postby chownah » Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:56 am

Buddha Vacana wrote: Some of those who are also pretty safe, though, worry for those who are not. People living in poor and badly drought-stricken areas are among those I worry about.

The time to worry about what will happen in drought stricken areas is long over....it is already happening. It has been happening for a long time and if it is trumps election which makes you worry about them then you are late to the party. Aren't you aware of the TENS OF THOUSANDS OF CHILDREN who were dieing EVERY DAY in sub saharan africa a few years ago....and about ten years before that...and before that...and before that? It is WAY past time to worry. It is time to act. No need to invoke the trumpeter here. People have been dieing in the hundreds of thousands ever since long before trump even expressed interest in holding office. They are dieing because people are more worried about who will win the world cup than they are in chldren starving to death in africa. They are dieing because people are more worried about what kind of food to feed their dog than they are about how to feed the starving children of sub saharan africa.....need I go on?
Your worrying seems to be for nothing. Maybe it helps you to think you are on the high ground of morality...I don't know...it doesn't matter....people in drought stricken areas have been dieing in mass numbers for quite awhile now and you worry...your worrying is...._______(fill in the blank).
chownah

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Postby Buddha Vacana » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:10 pm

Mr Man wrote:Does Trump still want to "Drain the swamp"

He has already publicly said he never meant it, he just said it because it made people react. See above the Trevor Noah video. And the "beauty" is that it doesn't matter at all for Trump supporters. They still think he is going to bring back "honesty" to the government.

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Postby Buddha Vacana » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:19 pm

chownah wrote:It has been happening for a long time and if it is trumps election which makes you worry about them then you are late to the party.

I don't know why you feel the need to give lessons and assume that others are just only waking up to something you've been knowing for a long time.

Once more, it's not because things were already pretty bad that they can't get significantly worse, over much larger areas and for much more people. Since I have been repeating this 3 or 4 times already, I'll just drop the conversation. Please take no offense.

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Postby chownah » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:52 pm

Buddha Vacana wrote:
chownah wrote:It has been happening for a long time and if it is trumps election which makes you worry about them then you are late to the party.

I don't know why you feel the need to give lessons and assume that others are just only waking up to something you've been knowing for a long time.

Once more, it's not because things were already pretty bad that they can't get significantly worse, over much larger areas and for much more people. Since I have been repeating this 3 or 4 times already, I'll just drop the conversation. Please take no offense.

No offense will be taken.
Oh, don't worry because it WILL get worse. This is not dependent on trump. It doesn't matter who the potus is....it will get worse....no need to worry...it is evidentally unavoidable so don't worry about it. Don't blame it on trump any more than you blame it on the elected members of the gov't....and don't blame it on the elected members of the gov't any more than you blame it on the people who elected them....and don't blame it on the people who elected them any more than you blame it on everyone who follows the same pattern of uncaring attachment to smart phones, mtv, professoinal sports, and just generally shopping to cheer oneself up to scare away the blues and focusing on ones own comforts without taking the time to find out what the colateral damage is to this lifestyle. I don't worry about it because there is nothing in the usa which is going to make a dent in this behavior for most americans.
Oh my oh my trump is going to make it worse......can't get much worse than dead and dieing already.....
chownah

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Postby Mkoll » Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:38 pm

chownah wrote:
Buddha Vacana wrote:
chownah wrote:It has been happening for a long time and if it is trumps election which makes you worry about them then you are late to the party.

I don't know why you feel the need to give lessons and assume that others are just only waking up to something you've been knowing for a long time.

Once more, it's not because things were already pretty bad that they can't get significantly worse, over much larger areas and for much more people. Since I have been repeating this 3 or 4 times already, I'll just drop the conversation. Please take no offense.

No offense will be taken.
Oh, don't worry because it WILL get worse. This is not dependent on trump. It doesn't matter who the potus is....it will get worse....no need to worry...it is evidentally unavoidable so don't worry about it. Don't blame it on trump any more than you blame it on the elected members of the gov't....and don't blame it on the elected members of the gov't any more than you blame it on the people who elected them....and don't blame it on the people who elected them any more than you blame it on everyone who follows the same pattern of uncaring attachment to smart phones, mtv, professoinal sports, and just generally shopping to cheer oneself up to scare away the blues and focusing on ones own comforts without taking the time to find out what the colateral damage is to this lifestyle. I don't worry about it because there is nothing in the usa which is going to make a dent in this behavior for most americans.
Oh my oh my trump is going to make it worse......can't get much worse than dead and dieing already.....
chownah

I think that part of what Buddha Vacana is saying is that there are different degrees to things getting worse (correct me if I'm wrong). With Trump, that degree is very likely be higher in many areas compared to if Hillary was POTUS, e.g. the amount of damage we do over the next 4 years to the environment.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Postby Mkoll » Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:40 pm

Buddha Vacana wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Does Trump still want to "Drain the swamp"

He has already publicly said he never meant it, he just said it because it made people react. See above the Trevor Noah video. And the "beauty" is that it doesn't matter at all for Trump supporters. They still think he is going to bring back "honesty" to the government.

Gingrich confirms:

CNN wrote:"Drain the swamp" was a refrain of Donald Trump during the presidential campaign, but Newt Gingrich says the president-elect "doesn't want to use it anymore" now that he's knee-deep in alligators.

"I'm told he now just disclaims that. He now says it was cute, but he doesn't want to use it anymore," Gingrich, who informally advises Trump, said Wednesday on NPR's "Morning Edition."
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Postby chownah » Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:37 am

As I said in another post somewhere, trump has morphed his "drain the swamp" from being draining the swamp of insiders to draining the swamp of corruption. This is based on a recent speech he made.
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Postby chownah » Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:52 am

Mkoll wrote:I think that part of what Buddha Vacana is saying is that there are different degrees to things getting worse (correct me if I'm wrong). With Trump, that degree is very likely be higher in many areas compared to if Hillary was POTUS, e.g. the amount of damage we do over the next 4 years to the environment.

The damage done to the environment is caused by decisions made every day by every one. Trump is just a manifestation of those decisions. If you are concerned about climate change then you should start a club that installs PV panels on roofs with donated labor. Roughly half the cost of installing PV panels is the labor. At current costs, eliminating labor costs would lower the cost per installed watt from about $1.50 to way less than $1.00 even counting in the beer you would have to provide to get a happy work crew to volunteer....this will make payback really short and make PV solar affordable to an entire segment of thte population who presently can not afford it....and....it will help instill a sense of civic pride in saving the environment. Call it the "Solar Trumps Oil Brigade"...or somesuch if it satisfies your need to bash trump.
Or...push for a PV Solar merit badge for the scouts and then go volunteer to organize them to do the same.
Don't just worry, do something....do something big.
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Postby Mkoll » Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:39 am

chownah wrote:
Mkoll wrote:I think that part of what Buddha Vacana is saying is that there are different degrees to things getting worse (correct me if I'm wrong). With Trump, that degree is very likely be higher in many areas compared to if Hillary was POTUS, e.g. the amount of damage we do over the next 4 years to the environment.

The damage done to the environment is caused by decisions made every day by every one. Trump is just a manifestation of those decisions. If you are concerned about climate change then you should start a club that installs PV panels on roofs with donated labor. Roughly half the cost of installing PV panels is the labor. At current costs, eliminating labor costs would lower the cost per installed watt from about $1.50 to way less than $1.00 even counting in the beer you would have to provide to get a happy work crew to volunteer....this will make payback really short and make PV solar affordable to an entire segment of thte population who presently can not afford it....and....it will help instill a sense of civic pride in saving the environment. Call it the "Solar Trumps Oil Brigade"...or somesuch if it satisfies your need to bash trump.
Or...push for a PV Solar merit badge for the scouts and then go volunteer to organize them to do the same.
Don't just worry, do something....do something big.
chownah

I'm saying that Trump's policies are more likely to result in more environmental damage than if it were Hillary's policies. The evidence is the statements he has made and continues to make as well as his cabinet appointments. Compare his statements to hers and his cabinet picks to the ones Hillary was considering. It's a reasonable conclusion based on the evidence, not bashing.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Postby dhammarelax » Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:15 am

There is a Sutta where the son of king Bimbisara, Ajatasatu visits the Buddha after killing Bimbisara to take the throne instigated by Devadata, the Buddha teaches him the Dhamma. Show some compassion and restrain the mind. Lets think about that Sutta, what if instead of lying about emails or whatnots Trump had actually killed Clinton, starved her in a cell. And he would register here at Dhamma Wheel and post a question, what would be our reaction?

What about the killing of all the Sakyan clan, what was the Blessed ones reaction?

What are the chances all the politicians hold to even have a good rebirth?

May all their suffering end.

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Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Postby chownah » Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:13 am

Mkoll wrote:
chownah wrote:
Mkoll wrote:I think that part of what Buddha Vacana is saying is that there are different degrees to things getting worse (correct me if I'm wrong). With Trump, that degree is very likely be higher in many areas compared to if Hillary was POTUS, e.g. the amount of damage we do over the next 4 years to the environment.

The damage done to the environment is caused by decisions made every day by every one. Trump is just a manifestation of those decisions. If you are concerned about climate change then you should start a club that installs PV panels on roofs with donated labor. Roughly half the cost of installing PV panels is the labor. At current costs, eliminating labor costs would lower the cost per installed watt from about $1.50 to way less than $1.00 even counting in the beer you would have to provide to get a happy work crew to volunteer....this will make payback really short and make PV solar affordable to an entire segment of thte population who presently can not afford it....and....it will help instill a sense of civic pride in saving the environment. Call it the "Solar Trumps Oil Brigade"...or somesuch if it satisfies your need to bash trump.
Or...push for a PV Solar merit badge for the scouts and then go volunteer to organize them to do the same.
Don't just worry, do something....do something big.
chownah

I'm saying that Trump's policies are more likely to result in more environmental damage than if it were Hillary's policies. The evidence is the statements he has made and continues to make as well as his cabinet appointments. Compare his statements to hers and his cabinet picks to the ones Hillary was considering. It's a reasonable conclusion based on the evidence, not bashing.

Ok then, just delete "if it satisfies your need to bash trump". It wasn't meant to point necessarily at you....it is not the point of my post. Just delete the offending line....sorry that it seems to have diluted what I was trying to say.
chownah

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Postby Buddha Vacana » Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:38 am

Trump alarms arms-control community with nuke tweet
“the United States must greatly strengthen and expand its nuclear capability until such time as the world comes to its senses regarding nukes.”

If I had ever voiced support for Trump, specially if I was among those who said Trump would ease international tensions, I would be deeply ashamed of myself right now.

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Postby lyndon taylor » Fri Dec 23, 2016 11:28 am

Yeah, he's definitely a bull in a china shop kind of President.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Postby chownah » Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:02 pm

Ever notice how trump seems to be always wanting to grab people's attention. He is really good at it. When he said "“the United States must greatly strengthen and expand its nuclear capability until such time as the world comes to its senses regarding nukes” I think it grabbed alot of people's attention just like when he said he'd build a wall (which is really maybe a fence, maybe a line in the dirt) and when he said he'd drain the swamp which isn't happening. But it always grabs alot of attention.

Is it a good thing for people's attention to be focused on the state of nuclear weapons?
chownah

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Postby Khalil Bodhi » Fri Dec 23, 2016 3:12 pm

He's a dangerous, mendacious man and I don't doubt that he'll get us all killed. Anicca vata sankhara...
To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas.
-Dhp. 183

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Postby Buddha Vacana » Sat Dec 24, 2016 6:06 am

"After Obama was elected in 2008, liberals didn’t spend all their time on social media gushing about the pain he was likely to inflict on conservatives. Liberals don’t paint conservatives as a bunch of lazy good-for-nothings, or suggest that we literally eliminate them from society. They’re far more likely to share articles about how to make nice over Christmas dinner — a duty that appears to fall solely on the shoulders of left-leaning family members — than they are to dismiss half the country as subhuman monsters."

"How can lower-income white people who rely heavily on the social safety net, especially in places like Appalachia, keep on voting for candidates whose avowed aim is to take it away? As Sarah Kliff at Vox discovered during her recent exploration of Kentucky, it’s because many of these voters believe that when politicians like Trump talk about ending government benefits, they don’t actually mean their government benefits. "
"When someone else — someone perceived as liberal — uses government assistance, it’s “welfare,” a sure sign that person is lazy and just needs to get off their butt and go find a job. But when conservatives need government programs, then they’re just hard-working people who need a little lift. That’s the perverse logic wrought by decades of dehumanizing rhetoric towards “liberals.”"
http://www.salon.com/2016/12/23/conserv ... -liberals/

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Postby binocular » Sat Dec 24, 2016 11:54 am

chownah wrote:My course bait? I'm just wanting people to stop talking in general terms of how "horrible" it will be as if they know what he will do and start actually saying what he will do to make it so "horrible".

Actually, scientific findings seem to suggest that such clarifications are not even possible, given how human moral reasoning proceeds and what it is founded on.
E.g.:
SOME EFFECTS OF MORAL INDIGNATION ON LAW
Cass R. Sunstein

Moral intuitions operate in much the same way as other intuitions do; what makes the moral domain distinctive is the frequent foundation of
moral judgments in the emotions, beliefs, and response tendencies that define indignation.
/.../
The psychological analysis of moral sentiments has witnessed profound changes over the last few decades, from a conception of morality as a system of abstract rules that can be understood and internalized to a view that emphasizes moral emotions and moral intuitions that are not anchored in reasons. On this view, reasons tend to be ex post rationalizations for moral intuitions, rather than causal. /.../
http://lawreview.vermontlaw.edu/wp-cont ... ol.-33.pdf
Glenn Wallis: Nascent speculative non-Buddhism
- - -
Do you believe that the Dhamma can be adequately taught solely through words, and even to people one doesn't care about?

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:05 pm

Buddha Vacana wrote:"That’s the perverse logic wrought by decades of dehumanizing rhetoric towards “liberals.”"

And how long have people been called racist, bigots... By liberals?
Far too long.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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