POTUS 2016, part 3

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.

Who would you like to see winning the presidency of the U.S.?

Hillary Clinton - (Dem.)
38
47%
Donald Trump - Mike Pence (Rep.)
21
26%
Gary Johnson - Bill Weld (Libertarian)
8
10%
Jill Stein (Green)
14
17%
 
Total votes: 81

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retrofuturist
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:19 pm

Greetings Lyndon,
lyndon taylor wrote:Not wanting everyone to have medical care is uncompassionate, not caring if people starve is uncompassionate, not caring if people are homeless is uncompassionate, only caring about yourself is uncompassionate.
And where has anyone expressed any of the following sentiments? Or have you merely taken it upon yourself to project these intentions upon others? Is that a particularly charitable act?

As much as one might wish for it to be otherwise, the production of food, shelter and medical care do not materialise from thin air. They are created by scarce labour, resources and capital, and therefore cost effort &/or money to create. Someone has to pay for these things - they do not simply fall from the sky, nor are they infinite in their supply.

To discuss, with reason and equanimity, how these goods & services should be produced and distributed to the best effect is hardly "uncompassionate". In fact it's very sensible discussion, and is precisely what people might reasonably expect from their economists and politicians.
lyndon taylor wrote:I don't see this as really debatable.
And therein lies much of the reason why the term "tolerant left" has become such a farcical misnomer in recent years... (and according to some, why the UK voted to leave the EU and why Donald J. Trump is now the 45th President of the United States)

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by lyndon taylor » Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:53 pm

Selfishness is not considered a virtue, right wing philosophy is basically the justification of selfishness. Left wing IMHO is supposed to be the importance of balancing the have not's with the haves, somewhere along the line this philosophy got derailed by pro abortion, LBGTI superiority, and a failure to address racial intolerance. Anyone with an agenda of reducing the few safety nets we have, like Medicare and Social Security has no compassion in their heart, only greed. The only left wing compassionate policy I've heard being proposed is the Living wage, it is the only real honest approach to compassionately deal with the coming switch to automation. Or you could do it my way; http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:11 pm

Greetings Lyndon,
lyndon taylor wrote:Selfishness is not considered a virtue, right wing philosophy is basically the justification of selfishness.
Not necessarily - a legitimate argument can be made for "right wing philosophy" on economic grounds alone. (I'm not saying it need be compelling, but the outcomes of capitalism vis-a-vis communism indicate it has merit).
lyndon taylor wrote:Left wing IMHO is supposed to be the importance of balancing the have not's with the haves, somewhere along the line this philosophy got derailed by pro abortion, LBGTI superiority, and a failure to address racial intolerance.
Agreed... it has become less about Economics and more about "Identity Politics", and the traditional left has become fractured as a result.
lyndon taylor wrote:Anyone with an agenda of reducing the few safety nets we have, like Medicare and Social Security has no compassion in their heart, only greed.
Again, not necessarily. Resources are not infinite and decisions need to be made on the structures and policies that will deliver the best outcomes. I would suggest that your uncharitable habit of ascribing evil intentions to those with whom you disagree does not deliver the best outcomes.
lyndon taylor wrote:The only left wing compassionate policy I've heard being proposed is the Living wage, it is the only real honest approach to compassionately deal with the coming switch to automation.
So you suggest that only one possible strategy is "honest", and all others are therefore, by default, "dishonest"? Again, such aspersions don't really demonstrate the charity or tolerance that is foundational to the left's self-image.

As a general principle I agree with Karl Marx's adage of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need"... but when the Left's execution of such an ideology makes recourse to moral relativism, discrimination, violence, authoritarianism, destruction of property, quotas, identity politics, critical theory, virtue signalling, crippling national debts, abdicating personal responsibility, shutting down free speech, or the tolerance of Islamic intolerance, then I must disavow its actions and step away.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by BlackBird » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:01 am

Identity politics is one of the strongest reasons we have this swing towards the Alt Right, but instead of understanding this and recognizing the mistake, it seems a lot of people on the left are doubling down on the idpol nonsense (especially this hyperbolic idea that there is a patriarchy controlling Western society) in order to provide 'strong opposition' to the Trump administration.

What they fail to realize is that a not insignificant proportion of people who voted for Trump in the key swing states, were people who voted for Obama. If they continue to shut these people out by acting like rabidly vocal immature teenagers with massive victim complexes, then liberal politics will continue to decline.

Life is far too easy for a lot of people these days, so they have to go looking and inventing things to be upset about - It's like the weird pleasure one gets from the pain of wiggling a loose tooth I guess. The reality is there has never been a better time to be alive for these people. The fact that they have so much time on their hands to be getting wound up about things that don't exist is proof enough.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by pulga » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:27 am

President Trump's approval rating is running well above 50%.

The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Tuesday shows that 57% of Likely U.S. Voters approve of President Trump’s job performance. Forty-three percent (43%) disapprove.

On the other hand it seems the Democratic Party is unraveling.


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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by lyndon taylor » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:33 am

Funny you should quote the most right wing biased inaccurate polling source, Rasmussen. Here's real clear politics with all the major polls on Trumps disapproval, they tell a very different story.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls ... -5493.html
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by chownah » Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:00 am

pulga wrote:With automation our dependence on wage slavery in poorer countries is going to be a thing of the past, which is good for the economy and for the environment. Though the problem of underemployment is going to have to be addressed eventually.

http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-ap ... -us-2017-1

http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-fo ... tes-2017-1
Indeed. I have been posting about this on the potus 2020 thread but no one has expressed any views. My view is that people who want to be politicaly engaged should start thinking and discussing how to find candidates to support who not only see the short term implications of this trend (job displacement, etc.) but who know that in the long term it means a complete and utter change in how society functions and that if we don't start thinking about how to handle this now there will be alot of suffering especially at the bottom because it is always the people on the bottom who receive the largest share of suffering. Consider that right now there are people starving because corporations are monopolizing the best farm land and using it to make profits and not worrying about the fact that it has displaced millions. I hope we can see that the way society is run is already causing suffering for those at the bottom.....it is likely to keep getting worse unless we start finding candidates who can see the way technology is going and finding ways to avoid the worst of it.
chownah

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by pulga » Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:11 am

chownah wrote: Indeed....
Consider what might happen in China. Chinese manufacturing will inevitably automate, and the workers there have absolutely no safety net, and virtually no say on how their government is run. There could very well be another Chinese revolution.

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by chownah » Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:15 am

lyndon taylor wrote:Labour rate for Chinese factory workers is around $1 an hour not $5.
Thanks for your input. Here is an article which says:
"There's something important to know here about the costs in these factories. Chinese manufacturing labour earns around $6,500 a year at present. That's after we adjust for price differences in China and the US. That's $3.25 an hour for something like the regular US working year. The Chinese work longer hours for that amount. Last I looked wages for electronics assembly in the US were $14 an hour or so."

So...my $5 for china and $25 for US are not right for the average factory worker....I'm not sure but I think my memory used numbers from a different article which was averages for high tech factory workers and not for the average.

In either case, the arguement remains the same....if automation increases profits when it replaces a worker at $3.25 per hour then it clearly increases profits when it replaces a worker at $14 per hour. My guess is that the factory worker who make $1 per hour need not worry about automation taking their job...at least not yet...but eventually it will happen.
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by pulga » Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:18 am

lyndon taylor wrote:Funny you should quote the most right wing biased inaccurate polling source, Rasmussen. Here's real clear politics with all the major polls on Trumps disapproval, they tell a very different story.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls ... -5493.html
Those polls are all prior to his taking office. But as I said before, it's difficult to place much faith in any polls these days.
Last edited by pulga on Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by Kim OHara » Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:20 am

More on fake news, from ThinkProgress:

https://thinkprogress.org/sean-spicer-l ... .ru2y9yx9j
:jawdrop:
:toilet:
:toilet:
:toilet:

From there on, it's toilets all the way down, not turtles.

:jedi:
Kim

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by chownah » Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:29 am

pulga wrote:
chownah wrote: Indeed....
Consider what might happen in China. Chinese manufacturing will inevitably automate, and the workers there have absolutely no safety net, and virtually no say on how their government is run. There could very well be another Chinese revolution.
Indeed. This is one very good example of what kind of suffering could come in the not so distant future. It could happen in america too. There are other scenarios to consider as well. If we wait for politicians to address this problem on their own they will continue to support the idea that profits will continue to take care of people even after that is no longer true....they will just use it as a political football to kick around and keep people stirred up and supporting this or that or the other thing. This is already happening....the way aid is given to the starving sub-saharan people who every ten years or so die in HUGE numbers is just treated as a political football. Taking care of those people is not really a very big problem when what is needed is compared to the overall productivity which exists in the world....easily enough food is produced without a doubt....global food shortage is a myth propogated by the political footballers to be played in whatever way gives this faction or that the most power. I don't think I am exagerating with this.

Anyway, I think it would be good if people started a serious discussion about thinking and formulating about what to do about automation and artificial intelligence.....ALL THE EXPERTS AGREE THAT IT IS COMING WAY FASTER THAN PEOPLE EXPECT. (At least all of the experts I am aware of.)
chownah

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by BlackBird » Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:49 am

pulga wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:Funny you should quote the most right wing biased inaccurate polling source, Rasmussen. Here's real clear politics with all the major polls on Trumps disapproval, they tell a very different story.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls ... -5493.html
...But as I said before, it's difficult to place much faith in any polls these days.
Bingo. Big reason why all the so called 'unbiased' mainstream polls were so wrong in the general election was because of the shy tory factor. Even RCP's 4 way aggregate got it wrong. Lyndon Taylor it's much better right now to err on the side of conservative 'biased' polls when trying to make a somewhat accurate guess of where the lay of the land actually lies when it comes to Trump. That or take the centre ground polls and add + 5 - 10% to any Trump related question.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by lyndon taylor » Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:07 am

If you study the polling, Rasmussen was wrong with a Republican bias on a lot of elections beside the President, they don't have a good track record and most people don't take them seriously. Here's an article on just how the Rasmussen bias works;

https://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.c ... -strongly/
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by pulga » Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:04 am

lyndon taylor wrote:If you study the polling, Rasmussen was wrong with a Republican bias on a lot of elections beside the President, they don't have a good track record and most people don't take them seriously. Here's an article on just how the Rasmussen bias works;
Thanks for the NY Times article. I really think that the bias is unavoidable. Even the article you provided recommends SurveyUSA which is generated by KPIX-TV out San Francisco which to my mind makes it suspect. And of course the NY Times itself felt obliged to apologize to its readership for its dishonest reporting on Trump after the election.

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