POTUS 2016, part 3

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.

Who would you like to see winning the presidency of the U.S.?

Hillary Clinton - (Dem.)
38
47%
Donald Trump - Mike Pence (Rep.)
21
26%
Gary Johnson - Bill Weld (Libertarian)
8
10%
Jill Stein (Green)
14
17%
 
Total votes: 81

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cjmacie
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by cjmacie » Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:08 am

Mkoll wrote:
cjmacie wrote:
BlackBird wrote:... Well you have to remember the MSM has been doing it this way for a very long time,...
"MSM"? methylsulfonylmethane?
Not familiar with this acronym (other than in pharmacology) and can't find it searching around here... :shrug:
Main Stream Media.

A useful resource: http://www.urbandictionary.com/
Thanx

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Mkoll
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by Mkoll » Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:12 am

Trump pulls U.S. out of Pacific trade deal, loosening Asia ties

From the little I've read, my opinion is that this is a good thing for Americans. And it's good that he kept his promise on this.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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BlackBird
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by BlackBird » Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:27 am

Mkoll wrote:Trump pulls U.S. out of Pacific trade deal, loosening Asia ties

From the little I've read, my opinion is that this is a good thing for Americans. And it's good that he kept his promise on this.
It's good for everyone, for all nations and their people that this trade deal doesn't go ahead. One thing that made it so unpopular here in NZ was that our government would have been liable to be sued in a foreign court if we enacted laws that as a result infringed upon a corporations profits. A good example of this same clause corporations snuck in to a trade deal between Hong Kong and Australia in 1993, this allowed Phillip Morris (big tobacco) to sue the Australian government for infringing upon their profits because Australia enacted a plain packaging law for ciggies. Fortunately Australia won that legal battle, but it's ridiculous that the right of a country to determine it's own laws could be impeded by the threat of legal action from a corporation.

Corporations have been using the guise of free trade deals to get more and more control for themselves for decades now. This is the creeping tide of corporatocracy, and assuming the TPPA is dead on arrival with US withdrawal - We have won this particular battle.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Buddha Vacana
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by Buddha Vacana » Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:48 am

Indeed, this is a very positive move.

What I am a little concerned about is the reason why Trump does this. Is it out of philanthropy? Or is it because he couldn't get his cut? I do hope Trump has a genuine human vision of the global landscape, not just an economic one, because otherwise we will see the same kind of deals come back, only in a way that will agree with Mr Trump's and his friends' personal interests. His "America first" ideology doesn't prefigure anything really good for anyone on the planet, Americans included.

It's high time for globalism - just a humane, philanthropic one, based on cooperation and not letting down those in need, wherever they happen to live.

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by Phena » Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:24 am

Buddha Vacana wrote:because otherwise we will see the same kind of deals come back, only in a way that will agree with Mr Trump's and his friends' personal interests.
Yes, it will be for reasons along these lines that he has ditched the TPP. One thing for sure is that it has nothing to do with American workers and their jobs, as he claims. Trump has absolutely no affinity with workers, and there is no evidence of this, they were purely a part of his election strategy in the rust belt states where the election was won. However, he will still maintain this charade, while he works for his own and the big end of town's interests, and sadly they will still believe he is for them.

Buddha Vacana
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by Buddha Vacana » Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:57 am

Let's not forget also that the worst of those deals, TiSA still marches on. Is he going to pull out of that one too, or is he going to turn it into something from which he will get a larger cut?

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by chownah » Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:22 pm

Buddha Vacana wrote:Indeed, this is a very positive move.

What I am a little concerned about is the reason why Trump does this. Is it out of philanthropy? Or is it because he couldn't get his cut? I do hope Trump has a genuine human vision of the global landscape, not just an economic one, because otherwise we will see the same kind of deals come back, only in a way that will agree with Mr Trump's and his friends' personal interests. His "America first" ideology doesn't prefigure anything really good for anyone on the planet, Americans included.

It's high time for globalism - just a humane, philanthropic one, based on cooperation and not letting down those in need, wherever they happen to live.
Fantasy explanation of why trump might want to do this.
1.America now has enough oil production to pretty much be self sufficient in energy.
2.By even only slightly supporting alternative energy and energy efficiency america would definitely be energy efficient.
By promoting oil exploitation for the immediate future he gets support from the oil industry by making some actions to promote coal he will probably put a few coal miners to work for awhile and thus gain support from the mining people. By promoting alernative energy even only slightly he gains support from that sector....and it keeps the transition going to alternative energy (he sees that this is inevitable in the long run, he is not stupid) which will guarantee energy independence in the future.
Because of the above america can be a virtually totaly isolationist economy. This gives america huge power in the world and trump hopes to be the one who wields this power.

To put it briefly: America can easily provide virtually everything it needs given the rate at which oil can be pumped now and because of the technological advances of automation and aritificial intelligence.....and if not now very very soon. America can then (after building a bigger military) give the middle finger to the world. Trump hopes that the middle finger that will be given is his.

Even more briefly: America does not need the rest of the world because of the abundance of resources it has.
chownah

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by lyndon taylor » Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:00 pm

So America does not need cell phone, televisions, computers etc etc etc because all those things are made in China and if they were made in America the price would be at least 4 times higher. In short America is totally dependent on the rest of the world and Trump isn't going to change that, all he can do is make imports more expensive, contributing to massive inflation.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

chownah
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by chownah » Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:32 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:So America does not need cell phone, televisions, computers etc etc etc because all those things are made in China and if they were made in America the price would be at least 4 times higher. In short America is totally dependent on the rest of the world and Trump isn't going to change that, all he can do is make imports more expensive, contributing to massive inflation.
In my fantasy scenario, we are in a transition period from being internationally engaged economically to be economic isolationists.

Consider what is happening with video displays. They are mostly made in china. A chinese company has announced that they are in a staged process of automation updates for arriving at a completely automated factory for producing the displays. That means that when this process is completed the labor cost for making the displays will not be a significant part of the cost of a display. This company has decided that it is cost effective to spend on the technology at this factory to eliminate jobs which (if I remember correctly) are in the $5 US per hour range. This means that surely it would be cost effective to do the same automation processes in america where it would be eliminating jobs which pay about $25 US per hour. So....this pretty much proves that if this automation will pay off in china that it will pay off in america too.

The chinese company could just as well operate the factory in america as in china since the labor to run the plant is not a significant cost. And...if a chinese company could do it in america it seems that an american company could do it too. You might ask why this isn't being done. I think the answer is that the world has up till now not been able to automate so cheaply compared to labor costs but as labor costs in asia have risen and the costs for automation have fallen we now find ourselves with an entirely new paradigm....which is that labor is losing its importance in the cost of creating goods while automation is increasing its importance. I think it is fair to assume that american technological know how is about at the same level as the chinese although the chinese seem to be more focused on developing that technology and it may be that america will fall behind in automation and artificial intelligence technologies....but...if conditions come about to spur development in america there is no doubt that american technologists could rise to the top (if you think china is ahead) or stay on top (if you think america is still ahead). Trump could be creating the conditions to kick start this process by saying he wants to bring jobs back when really he wants to bring factories back but as automated processes since this is obviously what the future will be and trump sees this because he is not stupid.

There is a transition going on...china is gaining on us or has already passed us. The longer we buy goods from china the more we will be financing their development of technological innovation. By america becoming isolationist (over a transition period) it will tend to channel that capital into american development of automation technology instead.

IT IS NOT ABOUT JOBS. IT IS ABOUT IMPLEMENTING AUTOMATION TECHNOLOGIES...WILL THIS HAPPEN IN CHINA OR IN THE USA? IT IS INEVITABLE THAT IT WILL HAPPEN SOMEWHERE.

chownah

pulga
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by pulga » Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:52 pm

With automation our dependence on wage slavery in poorer countries is going to be a thing of the past, which is good for the economy and for the environment. Though the problem of underemployment is going to have to be addressed eventually.

http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-ap ... -us-2017-1

http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-fo ... tes-2017-1

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by lyndon taylor » Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:29 pm

Labour rate for Chinese factory workers is around $1 an hour not $5.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by Cittasanto » Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Buddha Vacana wrote: It's high time for globalism - just a humane, philanthropic one, based on cooperation and not letting down those in need, wherever they happen to live.
Well as I come from a country who's inhabitants have been described as valuing independence above all, and the UK exit from the EU, and Scotlands past referendum to leave the UK (which lost by 2%). And the many anti EU groups within Europe... not to mention the promise to get out of at least one international deal by trump (who only lost the popular vote by 2%) it is safe to say a great swathe of the world would not want globalisation.
It is up to the people to demand taxation in their own country to cover nationalised health provisions if that is what they want.

But why should anyone else pay for another's expensive treatment, and who looses out so one person can have a massively expensive treatment.
Socialised healthcare has its benefits, but it isn't very different from private health insurance, decisions have to be made due to cost, necessity, and other factors that may be in play in cases. Take a sex change surgery for example, should that be provided? some socialised healthcare do in their service, while others don't. what about breast enlargements which have restrictions as to how much bigger is considered as a minimum and maximum, while other factors are also consideredas factors.

What about what happened in greese? their economy collapsed and the country decided to lower retirement age... something the country can not do without being part of the EU, because the whole of the EU has to help, but why should other states be forced to pay for the folly of people who won't help themselves out of their mess?

kind regards
cittasanto
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by lyndon taylor » Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:10 pm

How uncompassionate of you!!
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:50 pm

Greetings Lyndon,
lyndon taylor wrote:How uncompassionate of you!!
To have a different perspective on what structures deliver the best outcomes in society is not a result of being lacking in compassion.

One may well ask where is the compassion (or tolerance, for that matter) in insisting so of others, with regards to their meaning and intention? Is the rush to judgement and moral indignation an act of "compassion"?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by lyndon taylor » Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:05 pm

Not wanting everyone to have medical care is uncompassionate, not caring if people starve is uncompassionate, not caring if people are homeless is uncompassionate, only caring about yourself is uncompassionate. I don't see this as really debatable.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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