POTUS 2016, part 3

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Who would you like to see winning the presidency of the U.S.?

Hillary Clinton - (Dem.)
38
47%
Donald Trump - Mike Pence (Rep.)
21
26%
Gary Johnson - Bill Weld (Libertarian)
8
10%
Jill Stein (Green)
14
17%
 
Total votes: 81

Thisperson
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by Thisperson »

Justsit wrote:
Thisperson wrote: Here's a short article featuring comments from a gay jewish man, Milo Yiannopoulos, who works for Breitbart.
http://www.breitbart.com/milo/2016/11/1 ... made-star/

In the article Milo is questioned:
“Do you think your boss, Steve Bannon, chairman of Breitbart and now Trumps Chief Strategist, do you think he has horribly regressive attitudes? He’s been described by some liberals as an anti-semite, a white nationalist, have they got that wrong?”
Milo answers..
“Well Breitbart is a company staffed almost entirely by Jews, I am a gay Jew and he made me into a star, he flew over from America to hire Raheem Kassam to run the London office who is a brown skinned Muslim. This stuff is ridiculous, what a lot of Brits don’t always understand is how ugly and terrifying American politics can be, the name calling can be extraordinary.”
From a very revealing article from a not-exactly-liberal site (link below):

Milo - “We live in a post-fact era. It’s wonderful,” he says, pointing to various web pages on his giant computer screen that show photos of, supposedly, Bill Clinton’s grown black son. “The Washington Post gives a truth check, and no one cares. Now you have to use the truth and other strategies. You have to be persuasive. Dumpy lesbian feminists and shrieking harpies in the Black Lives Matter movement are not persuasive,” he says, digging into the egg, turkey, and avocado scramble prepared by his full-time trainer.

In this Kafkaesque troll war for America’s soul, Yiannopoulos believes that all offense is performed rather than truly felt. “I have never been offended. I don’t know what it means. It’s not that I disagree with it. I don’t understand it. I’ve never had that feeling,” he says. “I don’t let feelings control my life. I’m more disciplined than other people. I have a dark, ADD, Asp-y [Asperger’s syndrome] brain. I’m totally autistic or sociopathic. I guess I’m both.”

More below, if you can stomach it.
https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2016 ... nnopoulos/

As it says in the Christian bible, Time will tell where wisdom lies. We can speculate all we want, we just have to wait and see.
:) Haha Milo is quite a character and does say some ridiculous things (I think that's part of his shtick)..

I agree though, time will tell.
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Mr Man
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by Mr Man »

Thisperson wrote: In the article Milo is questioned:
“Do you think your boss, Steve Bannon, chairman of Breitbart and now Trumps Chief Strategist, do you think he has horribly regressive attitudes? He’s been described by some liberals as an anti-semite, a white nationalist, have they got that wrong?”
Milo answers..
“Well Breitbart is a company staffed almost entirely by Jews, I am a gay Jew and he made me into a star, he flew over from America to hire Raheem Kassam to run the London office who is a brown skinned Muslim. This stuff is ridiculous, what a lot of Brits don’t always understand is how ugly and terrifying American politics can be, the name calling can be extraordinary.”
But I thought Milo was a Catholic & Kassam was an atheist?


Here is something on Kassam

Raheem Kassam - The Right Man For Ukip ...

http://www.farrightwatch.org/2016/10/ra ... -ukip.html

He wanted to allow ex-members of far right groups to join UKIP.

He has now pulled out of UKIP leadership contest.


Here is a piece from a former editor at Breitbart

"I Know Trump's New Campaign Chairman, Steve Bannon. Here's What You Need To Know."

http://www.dailywire.com/news/8441/i-kn ... piro#modal

From the article

"Andrew Breitbart despised racism. Truly despised it. He used to brag regularly about helping to integrate his fraternity at Tulane University. He insisted that racial stories be treated with special care to avoid even the whiff of racism. With Bannon embracing Trump, all that changed. Now Breitbart has become the alt-right go-to website, with Yiannopoulos pushing white ethno-nationalism as a legitimate response to political correctness, and the comment section turning into a cesspool for white supremacist mememakers."
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Cittasanto
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by Cittasanto »

Justsit wrote:Without a long discussion of the history of racism in the US, from slavery to the present day, it is hard to describe why the state of race relations here has declined so dramatically in the past few years.
There comes a time when people need to stand up and take responsibility for their lives and not blame the past. I spent time in northern Ireland a couple of years ago, and there are still people going around blaming everything on the English, or the protestants, completely stuck in an identity that can only bring about more violence. Blaming others, promoting segregation in the guise of safe spaces... is only going to perpetuate what is happening now, instead of bringing about Martin Luther King Jr's Dream.
Suffice it to say that there is a significant percentage of black people here who are hopeless. They live in conditions of extreme poverty, rampant drug use, minimal education and some recent instances of documented police brutality and blatant miscarriage of justice that have resulted in the BLM movement. Black people are tired of being shot in the streets, sometimes totally unarmed; police sometimes overreact and shoot indiscriminately. BLM is a reaction to that.
Hopeless??? I hope you mean that is their feeling due to the situation they can find themselves in?
Look at crime statistics. I pulled up 2015 data.
Do bare in mind law enforcement know they could be shot every day they go in to work and even if they don't (they are allowed to carry even after leaving law enforcement to be able to protect themselves from revenge in any state even when concealed carry is not allowed) and are trained to be alert to danger... The very training they need to be able to remain safe themselves and to protect others... can go wrong, even if they aren't racist they know the statistics, they have been punched apprehending suspects....

% of all crime a black perpetrator was arrested 28.6% (1,716,106 arrests out of 5,996,307 total arrests)
% of all violent crime a black perpetrator was arrested 39.5 (117,997 arrests out of 298,747 total arrests)
% of all Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter a black perpetrator was arrested 56.4% (3,521 arrests out of 6,238 total arrests)
If a group makes up 13.3% of the total inhabitants yet makes up 40% of all violent crime arrests the community needs to address these. Instead of protesting and calling for police to fry like bacon, maybe there is another option? Maybe being there to criticize when criticism is due is needed (I believe it is), but also being there to help their community members get out of crime, get a better education, mediate disputes, learn a trade... but that would be easy. it is far easier to get angry at the situation, instead of working for change you can believe in.
I am not condoning illegal activity by BLM members in any way. Violence is not the answer. But I can understand how volatile communities have reached a tipping point, and government has sometimes turned a blind eye. When people feel their lives don't matter, they have nothing to lose by acting out.
It is understandable, but it is also the whole communities responsibility to stand up and represent themselves, and make a difference.
And now we have hard line white supremacists in the White House and positions of power. Things could get very ugly.
I assume you mean Steve Bannon? judge him, and anyone else by the work they do in the position, if they start making horrendous laws... I will be right there by you criticizing them. But i believe if you give them a chance instead of jumping before you look (i've seen petitions for trump to be a president for all americans... even though he said he would be) we will either be nicely surprised, Horrified, or things will remain the same, I personally believe the latter.

Kind Regards
Cittasanto
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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Justsit
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by Justsit »

I think that it is wrong to criticize the actions of others without knowing the facts, and those are hard to decipher when filtered through multiple levels of media. There's an aphorism about walking a mile in someone else's shoes, meaning before judging someone, you must understand his experiences, challenges, thought processes, etc. And for white people, it is very easy to sit in a position of privilege, not a member of any minority, and tell others how they should live their lives.

Martin Luther King, in his "I Have A Dream" speech in 1963, pointed to a world where people would be judged on the content of their character, not the color of their skin. Sadly, in the US, we have made very little progress toward that goal.

We can only hope at this point that Mr. Trump will keep his promise to be president of all the people. Frankly, I doubt that will happen. I hope I'm wrong.
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retrofuturist
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

An interesting piece I found today... (apologies if this has already been posted elsewhere)

Liberals Should Stop Ranting And Seek Out Silent Trump Voters Like Me

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
Phena
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by Phena »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

An interesting piece I found today... (apologies if this has already been posted elsewhere)

Liberals Should Stop Ranting And Seek Out Silent Trump Voters Like Me

Metta,
Paul. :)
Why would "liberals" even bother reading such right-wing tosh, is a better point.
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retrofuturist
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Phena wrote:Why would "liberals" even bother reading such right-wing tosh, is a better question.
Such a contemptuous and intolerant attitude towards views that differ from your own is precisely why the article was written and precisely why Hillary Clinton lost.

If liberals want to stop digging themselves into a deeper hole, the kind of self-reflection this article prompts may be a great place to start.

Or of course, if they prefer, liberals can remain in their own echo chamber and see how that works for them...



Take care.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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mikenz66
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by mikenz66 »

Cittasanto wrote:
Justsit wrote:Without a long discussion of the history of racism in the US, from slavery to the present day, it is hard to describe why the state of race relations here has declined so dramatically in the past few years.
There comes a time when people need to stand up and take responsibility for their lives and not blame the past. I spent time in northern Ireland a couple of years ago, and there are still people going around blaming everything on the English, or the protestants, completely stuck in an identity that can only bring about more violence. ...
I don't know much about Northern Ireland, but I do know about New Zealand, and actually it made a big difference here when the government took seriously the violations of the 1840 treaty between the Queen and the Maori people. I wouldn't dare to suggest that NZ is perfect, we do, after all, have Maori vastly over-represented in prison, but I am very happy to be able to say the idea that the Maori people should be told to "just get over it" no longer has any serious political traction in this country.

Of course, some have moved on to blaming recent immigrants for their woes, but the white people here are on shaky ground, not being the first people...

Perhaps slightly off-topic, but a hilarious sketch from one of our late comedy greats:


:anjali:
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Phena
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by Phena »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
Phena wrote:Why would "liberals" even bother reading such right-wing tosh, is a better question.
Such a contemptuous and intolerant attitude towards views that differ from your own is precisely why the article was written and precisely why Hillary Clinton lost.

If liberals want to stop digging themselves into a deeper hole, the kind of self-reflection this article prompts may be a great place to start.

Or of course, liberals can choose to stay in their own echo chamber and see how that works for them.



Take care.

Metta,
Paul.
As I've already pointed out elsewhere, this is just a ploy by right-wing groups and media to silence opposition to them that reveals their intolerant and divisive behaviour. The condescension is sickening, and I don't buy it for a moment. I had a good look around the site you linked to before replying to your post which clearly reveals the political framing, tone and agenda of the site. I and most astute progressives, will just not buy into the rhetoric and rubbish of such sites.

The pithy "liberal echo chamber" tag you keep referring to and have bought into, identified with and coalesced around is a prime example of this right-wing rhetoric and labeling to shut people down and quell any criticism of their motives and intentions. Also, your personal condescension to "liberals" with comments such as "If liberals want to stop digging themselves into a deeper hole" is palpable, retro.
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retrofuturist
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Phena,
Phena wrote:Also, your personal condescension to "liberals" with comments such as "If liberals want to stop digging themselves into a deeper hole" is palpable, retro.
Not condescension... it's a genuine desire for the Democratic party to reflect and understand where it went wrong, to make corrective measures, and to come up with a sensible attitude and policy platform that will prevent it from being in the political wilderness any longer than it needs to be.

It is interesting though that your first reaction is to invest energies in discrediting the source rather than using logic and reason to counter the arguments made. If you wish to respond to what the article says with something other than contemptuous dismissal, then be my guest...

(All said as someone who has voted for left of centre parties their entire adult life...)

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Goofaholix
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by Goofaholix »

retrofuturist wrote:
Phena wrote:Why would "liberals" even bother reading such right-wing tosh, is a better question.
Such a contemptuous and intolerant attitude towards views that differ from your own is precisely why the article was written and precisely why Hillary Clinton lost.
Reading the article it struck me that the author considered it to be an issue of attitude of intolerance towards views that differ from your own as you say. This might be the case in the US I don't know, it seems to me that a conservative political outlook is perfectly valid and every country has a balance of conservatives and liberals.

It strikes me though that in this case this is not the issue, the issue is that a president elect is promising he will do things that are in many cases possibly illegal, or possibly impossible, or will rely on other governments doing things they say they will not. Added to this exhibits sleezy and mysongnistic behaviour, is titchy and vulgar, holds public fueds with people, possibly will run the company as an extension of his business empire, the list goes on.

Most people understand that the other side needs a turn in government sometimes, I think nobody would resent being led by somebody of differing views if they were to behave presidential, do so with integrity and diplomacy according to the rule of law.
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah
Phena
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by Phena »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Phena,
Phena wrote:Also, your personal condescension to "liberals" with comments such as "If liberals want to stop digging themselves into a deeper hole" is palpable, retro.
Not condescension... it's a genuine desire for the Democratic party to reflect and understand where it went wrong, to make corrective measures, and to come up with a sensible attitude and policy platform that will prevent it from being in the political wilderness any longer than it needs to be.

It is interesting though that your first reaction is to invest energies in discrediting the source rather than using logic and reason to counter the arguments made. If you wish to respond to what the article says with something other than contemptuous dismissal, then be my guest...

(All said as someone who has voted for left of centre parties their entire adult life...)

Metta,
Paul. :)
No, I did counter the arguments made by pointing out the agenda of such sites. I find it more interesting that you keep linking to such unbalanced sources, which deserve exactly the kind of short-shrift I gave it.

Progressives don't need right-wing commentators such as yourself to identify where it all went wrong. It's simple. The insistence of Hilary Clinton, of the centre-right, as the choice for Democratic candidate. So please stop the condescending tirade of the "narrow-minded liberal echo chamber" type descriptors. This is such a one-dimensional characterisation of progressive thinkers and the general situation as it is.

First Dog On The Moon has a funnier and more accurate depiction of things as they are than the youtube video you posted.
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Phena,
Phena wrote:No, I did counter the arguments made by pointing out agenda of such sites .
My apologies. Perhaps I should have been clearer... I meant an argument that doesn't rely upon ad-hominem fallacies.

Take care.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Kim OHara
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by Kim OHara »

A good letter from the ACLU to Trump: https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/file ... t-rel1.pdf

:reading:
Kim
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by rowboat »

Phena wrote: I find it more interesting that you keep linking to such unbalanced sources, which deserve exactly the kind of short-shrift I gave it.

Progressives don't need right-wing commentators such as yourself to identify where it all went wrong. It's simple. The insistence of Hilary Clinton, of the centre-right, as the choice for Democratic candidate. So please stop the condescending tirade of the "narrow-minded liberal echo chamber" type descriptors. This is such a one-dimensional characterisation of progressive thinkers and the general situation as it is.
Introducing The Federalist, A New Web Magazine For Anti-LGBT Conservatives
Launched in September 2013 as a "web magazine on politics, policy, and culture," The Federalist is helmed by publisher Ben Domenech, a co-founder of the right-wing blog RedState.com and senior fellow at the Heartland Institute, a conservative think tank known for its opposition to climate science and funding from industry sources like the Koch brothers. Co-founder Sean Davis came to conservative journalism after a career in GOP politics, having worked for Gov. Rick Perry (R-TX) and Sen. Tom Coburn (R-OK). Senior editors David Harsanyi and Mollie Hemingway and senior writer Robert Tracinski round out The Federalist's leadership.[...]

The Federalist invariably denounces LGBT equality as the pet project of cosmopolitan, government-expanding, Middle America-hating elites. As such, it appears that there's no low to which the website won't sink in defending anti-LGBT bigotry against those who call it out. This became painfully obvious during the debacle following Duck Dynasty star Phil Robertson's comments comparing homosexuality with bestiality and terrorism.

Instead of reflecting on the damage such demeaning remarks have done to LGBT people, Rachel Lu decided that the uproar greeting Robertson's comments was about "anti-redneck" prejudice on the part of "the liberal media." [...]

Central to The Federalist's ethos is the notion that it's willing to fearlessly defend freedom in the face of attacks from the reviled liberal elite. It's especially ironic, then, that a website constantly on the guard against "Orwellian" liberalism so regularly defends draconian anti-gay bigotry in the name of liberty.[...]

Upon The Federalist's launch, Domenech promised readers stories "of heroes, martyrs, and villains." It takes an especially warped worldview to constantly cast an historically marginalized group in the latter role, with their oppressors so often heralded as "heroes" and "martyrs."
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