POTUS 2016, part 3

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
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Who would you like to see winning the presidency of the U.S.?

Hillary Clinton - (Dem.)
38
47%
Donald Trump - Mike Pence (Rep.)
21
26%
Gary Johnson - Bill Weld (Libertarian)
8
10%
Jill Stein (Green)
14
17%
 
Total votes: 81

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rowboat
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by rowboat » Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:06 pm

Bundokji wrote:Deplorables
I'm pretty sure these are the people she was talking about :thinking:

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by Bundokji » Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:29 pm

rowboat wrote:
Bundokji wrote:Deplorables
I'm pretty sure these are the people she was talking about :thinking:

I did not see anything in the video implies that half of trump supporters are deplorable, propaganda can be very selective sometimes to show the other side look bad. Have a good look at the following video, would you conclude that half of Trump's opponents are deplorable?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMux_UHmpvc

By the way, Clinton herself admitted that she made a mistake by being "grossly geneticistic", not a very smart thing to say in my opinion, and the impact of it is still to be seen in the coming round of polls.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by rowboat » Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:49 pm

White Nationalists See Trump As A Chance To Break Into The Media Mainstream
Prominent white nationalists touted their growing media influence in the wake of Donald Trump’s rise to the Republican presidential nomination on a wave of bigoted rhetoric at a September 9 press conference titled “What Is The Alt-Right?”

The press conference, organized by white nationalist “think tank” the National Policy Institute (NPI), aimed to explain how the “alt-right” -- a movement of fringe modern white supremacists -- had “become a force in American politics in such a short period of time.” The racist movement has garnered renewed interest from media outlets in the wake of Hillary Clinton’s August 25 speech decrying the Trump campaign’s cozy relationship with the movement, including the hiring of Breitbart News executive chairman and alt-right leader Stephen Bannon as campaign CEO.

The press conference featured three prominent white nationalist speakers: NPI president Richard Spencer, who coined the term “alt-right;” Jared Taylor, who publishes the white nationalist online magazine American Renaissance; and Peter Brimelow, who founded the white nationalist anti-immigration site VDare.com.
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by Bundokji » Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:30 pm

So, a press conference featuring three people makes half of Trump's supporters deplorable! :rolleye:
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by rowboat » Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:15 am

"Obama may have won the presidency on election night, but pundit Nate Silver won the internet by correctly predicting presidential race outcomes in every state plus the District of Columbia — a perfect 51/51 score.
Now the interwebs are abuzz with Nate Silver praise. Gawker proclaims him “America’s Chief Wizard.” Gizmodo humorously offers 25 Nate Silver Facts (sample: “Nate Silver’s computer has no “backspace” button; Nate Silver doesn’t make mistakes”). IsNateSilverAWitch.com concludes: “Probably.”
Was Silver simply lucky? Probably not. In the 2008 elections he scored 50/51, missing only Indiana, which went to Obama by a mere 1%.
How does he do it? In his CFAR-recommended book The Signal and the Noise: Why So Many Predictions Fail, but Some Don’t, Silver reveals that his “secret” is bothering to obey the laws of probability theory rather than predicting things from his gut."
Only 56 days until the election. Stay current with the polls - keep up with Nate Silver's election forecast at 538.
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Therefore uncover what is covered
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by chownah » Tue Sep 13, 2016 4:33 am

Bundokji wrote:So, a press conference featuring three people makes half of Trump's supporters deplorable! :rolleye:
Clinton said that she was wrong to say that half of trump's supporters were deplorable didn't she? So why are you still focusing on somthing she has disavowed?
chownah

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by Bundokji » Tue Sep 13, 2016 11:52 am

chownah wrote:
Bundokji wrote:So, a press conference featuring three people makes half of Trump's supporters deplorable! :rolleye:
Clinton said that she was wrong to say that half of trump's supporters were deplorable didn't she? So why are you still focusing on somthing she has disavowed?
chownah
Trump has said and did many stupid things in the past, but the impact on his popularity was minimal. In the case of Clinton, she is a seasoned politician who would usually weigh up her words before saying them, hence the amount of damage done by her words (if any) is not easy to predict.

Even though she admitted saying something wrong, she distanced herself from the average voter even further considering that she is viewed by many as an elitist who has no connection whatsoever with the average American.

Its worth noting that some of her own potential voters hold unfavorable views of Islam (24%) Support the banning of all Muslims entering the US (26%) considering Terrorism a very big problem (%36) Finding Trump's description of Mexicans as rapists and criminal to be acceptable (%25) Building the wall (%13) and holding negative views about black people (%35)

http://www.vox.com/2016/9/12/12882796/t ... eplorables

Of course, the above is more prominent among Trump's supporters as per the link, but i am wondering the impact of her own words not on Trump's supporters, but on Democrats who agree with Trump as the above numbers suggest.

The race is already tightening and the coming 56 day as rowboat suggested are going to be decisive. In addition to her stupid and regrettable description of Trump's supporters, the way her campaign handled her health issues was quite poor, the presidential debate is after two weeks, the potential of wikileaks releasing sensitive documents about the Clintons in October and any further developments in relation to the emails scandal, all of this might change the game.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by Sima » Tue Sep 13, 2016 4:54 pm

Bundokji wrote:So, a press conference featuring three people makes half of Trump's supporters deplorable! :rolleye:
Quoting Te-Nehisi Coates:

"We know, for instance, some nearly 60 percent of Trump’s supporters hold 'unfavorable views' of Islam, and 76 percent support a ban on Muslims entering the United States. We know that some 40 percent of Trump’s supporters believe blacks are more violent, more criminal, lazier, and ruder than whites. Two-thirds of Trump’s supporters believe the first black president in this country’s history is not American. These claim are not ancillary to Donald Trump’s candidacy, they are a driving force behind it." (emphasis added)

The article includes links to sources for those statistics.

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by Bundokji » Tue Sep 13, 2016 7:01 pm

Sima wrote:
Bundokji wrote:So, a press conference featuring three people makes half of Trump's supporters deplorable! :rolleye:
Quoting Te-Nehisi Coates:

"We know, for instance, some nearly 60 percent of Trump’s supporters hold 'unfavorable views' of Islam, and 76 percent support a ban on Muslims entering the United States. We know that some 40 percent of Trump’s supporters believe blacks are more violent, more criminal, lazier, and ruder than whites. Two-thirds of Trump’s supporters believe the first black president in this country’s history is not American. These claim are not ancillary to Donald Trump’s candidacy, they are a driving force behind it." (emphasis added)

The article includes links to sources for those statistics.
Clinton did not get it wrong about Trump's supporters, but she got it wrong about her own supporters. %36 of her supporters hold unfavorable views about black people, not much less than Trump's supporters and this is the crux of the matter in my opinion.

There is one major difference to be taken into consideration: Trump's supporters are more open about how they feel than Democrats who would be more criticized for holding such views hence they are more inclined to hide it, so who knows, maybe the real numbers are even higher.

When Clinton makes accusations against Trump's supporters she is implying that her supporters are quite pure which is not the case.

It seems that many supporters on both sides hold negative views against some minorities (even though to different degrees) Now to dismiss them as racists and bigots is an over-simplification especially if some got their beliefs from day-to-day interactions with particular groups. Of course, that does not make their beliefs necessarily accurate, but at the same time, calling them names because they disagree with us instead of looking at the evidence they relied on is the real bigotry in my opinion.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by chownah » Wed Sep 14, 2016 2:29 am

Bundokji wrote:
Sima wrote:
Bundokji wrote:So, a press conference featuring three people makes half of Trump's supporters deplorable! :rolleye:
Quoting Te-Nehisi Coates:

"We know, for instance, some nearly 60 percent of Trump’s supporters hold 'unfavorable views' of Islam, and 76 percent support a ban on Muslims entering the United States. We know that some 40 percent of Trump’s supporters believe blacks are more violent, more criminal, lazier, and ruder than whites. Two-thirds of Trump’s supporters believe the first black president in this country’s history is not American. These claim are not ancillary to Donald Trump’s candidacy, they are a driving force behind it." (emphasis added)

The article includes links to sources for those statistics.
Clinton did not get it wrong about Trump's supporters, but she got it wrong about her own supporters. %36 of her supporters hold unfavorable views about black people, not much less than Trump's supporters and this is the crux of the matter in my opinion.

There is one major difference to be taken into consideration: Trump's supporters are more open about how they feel than Democrats who would be more criticized for holding such views hence they are more inclined to hide it, so who knows, maybe the real numbers are even higher.

When Clinton makes accusations against Trump's supporters she is implying that her supporters are quite pure which is not the case.

It seems that many supporters on both sides hold negative views against some minorities (even though to different degrees) Now to dismiss them as racists and bigots is an over-simplification especially if some got their beliefs from day-to-day interactions with particular groups. Of course, that does not make their beliefs necessarily accurate, but at the same time, calling them names because they disagree with us instead of looking at the evidence they relied on is the real bigotry in my opinion.
In terms of which candidate works the hardest to present the message that having racist and bigoted ideas is wrong and counter to what that candidate stands for.....do you think it is clinton or trump that sends the clearest message.
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by Bundokji » Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:33 am

chownah wrote: In terms of which candidate works the hardest to present the message that having racist and bigoted ideas is wrong and counter to what that candidate stands for.....do you think it is clinton or trump that sends the clearest message.
chownah
Good question and difficult to answer. Clinton is definitely sending a message, but her message is far from clear.

I have an uncle who moved to the U.S in the late 1960s, he worked hard and became wealthy. At the age of 40, he did not have to work anymore, he became a landlord collecting rents. During his last visit to where i live, he showed me photos on his phone of the damage done to one of his units by tenants belonging to a particular ethnic group, he also mentioned that he faced many problems in the past with tenants from the same group but he is unable to reject renting his units to them because they can sue him as "discriminating against them"

Knowing my uncle, he is far from racist, but what i concluded from listening to him is that if its up to him, he would be more selective when choosing his tenants and ethnicity would be taken into consideration. From a businessman's point of view, you try to minimize risks by assessing the likely outcome of certain business decisions

The clearest message (at least in my mind) is the one which reflects the truth, and i don't live in the U.S to make judgements based on first hand experience but i guess both candidates are offering half truths at best. By the way, my uncle lives in California and as far as i know he votes for the democrats, but under a certain criteria, he would be described as racist and bigot, which i know with high degree of certainty to be untrue.

To sum up, Clinton did not get wrong by making a stereotype about Trumpe's supporters, but the criteria being used to label people is too wide which made more than half of the country a bunch of bigoted racists (including many of her own supporters) which is quite unfair in my opinion.

I think the clearest message is sent by Steven Pinker when he said:
With some important exceptions, stereotypes are in fact not inaccurate when assessed against objective benchmarks such as census figures or the reports of the stereotyped people themselves. People who believe that African Americans are more likely to be on welfare than whites, that Jews have higher average income than WASPs, that business students are more conservative than students in the arts, that women are more likely than men to want to lose weight, and that men are more likely than women to swat a fly with their bare hands, are not being irrational or bigoted. Those beliefs are correct. People’s stereotypes are generally consistent with the statistics, and in many cases their bias is to underestimate the real differences between sexes or ethnic groups. This does not mean that the stereotyped traits are unchangeable, of course, or that people think they are unchangeable, only that people perceive the traits fairly accurately at the time
[/quote]
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by chownah » Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:23 pm

Bundokji wrote:
chownah wrote: In terms of which candidate works the hardest to present the message that having racist and bigoted ideas is wrong and counter to what that candidate stands for.....do you think it is clinton or trump that sends the clearest message.
chownah
Good question and difficult to answer.
I find this question easy to answer.
chownah

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by SDC » Wed Sep 14, 2016 4:17 pm

:focus:

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by lyndon taylor » Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:20 am

I think Clinton's assessment that at least 1/4 of the country is made up of racists, bigots and homophobes is essentially accurate, and the vast majority of same are Trump supporters, unfortunately that being true doesn't make it a good thing to say when running for president, even if you think it, and even if it is true. Sometimes taking the higher ground and not dishing out the insults is the smarter way to go, especially since the other candidate doesn't seem to be able to get his mouth out of the gutter.
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by Monkey Gift of Honey » Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:07 pm

Re: Hillary Clinton's comments about American voters

To make a blanket statement about tens of millions of Americans, to label them all as being "racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic", etc, is just plain wrong. Yes, there are people who are racist, and people who are sexist, and so on, but to say that the people that aren't voting for her, these tens of millions of Americans are all of these horrible things is just dark, twisted thinking. I know people who are Trump supporters, they are not all of those things, they are not any of those things she has judged and labeled them to be. The people I know are virtuous, kind-hearted people. For her to besmirch tens of millions of people she could not possibly know in this way is shameful and very disturbing. I know friends who were going to vote for Jill Stein, but now in solidarity with the tens of millions who are just a "basket of deplorables", as she calls them, they are going to vote for Trump as a a sign of unity against this slander and hate toward fellow co-workers and friends.
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by chownah » Sat Sep 17, 2016 12:20 pm

Harvard professor says (after a multi-year research project) that politics in the US is the major factor for the decline in economic vitality there.
From the article: “Today, we believe that our political system is now the major obstacle to progress on the economy, especially at the federal level,” according to the report.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/hbs-compe ... 19596.html
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by badscooter » Sat Sep 17, 2016 1:40 pm

Monkey Gift of Honey wrote:Re: Hillary Clinton's comments about American voters

To make a blanket statement about tens of millions of Americans, to label them all as being "racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic", etc, is just plain wrong. Yes, there are people who are racist, and people who are sexist, and so on, but to say that the people that aren't voting for her, these tens of millions of Americans are all of these horrible things is just dark, twisted thinking. I know people who are Trump supporters, they are not all of those things, they are not any of those things she has judged and labeled them to be. The people I know are virtuous, kind-hearted people. For her to besmirch tens of millions of people she could not possibly know in this way is shameful and very disturbing. I know friends who were going to vote for Jill Stein, but now in solidarity with the tens of millions who are just a "basket of deplorables", as she calls them, they are going to vote for Trump as a a sign of unity against this slander and hate toward fellow co-workers and friends.
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by pluto » Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:17 pm

It's regrettable that Clinton has made what, fearfully, may turn out to be a grave mistake in her 'deplorables' comment. By not separating actions, behavior and attitudes from people themselves. This is a cultural tendency and error that most of us share and it's insulting. No hearts and minds won here. People are not racist, bigoted, etc but have racist and bigoted attitudes and carry out hateful acts. If she could pivot on that and drive it forward it might help her. We'll see what happens in the debates. The evidence is clear from the tapes and transcripts that Donald Trump is fomenting harm in the form hate and violent actions at proportions never before seen in a presidential race; at least in my lifetime.

Yesterday at a gas station in rural Georgia I saw a sweet elderly grandmother with two high-energy toddlers in tow. She was buying them ice creams and saying kind things to them. She had on a Trump t-shirt. Clearly this person is not a 'deplorable' but perhaps is uninformed, frightened and sees in Trump someone who's familiar, someone who shares her race, speaks with authority, has the persona of an all powerful male who promises to solve all the problems. This is no doubt part of her cultural conditioning.

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by pulga » Tue Sep 20, 2016 2:34 pm

What irked people about Hillary's "deplorable" comment was not only its gross simplicity, but the condescension it displayed towards those who don't share her views.

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by chownah » Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:19 pm

pulga wrote:What irked people about Hillary's "deplorable" comment was not only its gross simplicity, but the condescension it displayed towards those who don't share her views.
I thought she was displaying condescension towards racists, bigots, sexists, and the usual gamut of haters. I think she already said that she was wrong to have made her comment. I agree with her that she was wrong to have made the comment. Do you agree with her on this?
chownah

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