POTUS 2016, part 3

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.

Who would you like to see winning the presidency of the U.S.?

Hillary Clinton - (Dem.)
38
47%
Donald Trump - Mike Pence (Rep.)
21
26%
Gary Johnson - Bill Weld (Libertarian)
8
10%
Jill Stein (Green)
14
17%
 
Total votes: 81

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by No_Mind » Sat Jul 23, 2016 2:28 am

The principal wrong assumption being made by those who keep themselves informed about politics is .. voters actually care who is a centrist or who will nominate a liberal judge to SCOTUS.

Ordinary voters (in any country) don't care a fig about such things. If voters were intelligent and rational then George W. Bush cannot have been reelected in Nov 2004 by which time it had been proved beyond any doubt that there was no WMD in Iraq and that the war was a colossal blunder.
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by Kim OHara » Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:06 am

Okay - Hillary has just got my (imaginary) vote for sure:
This month, the full Democratic Platform Committee approved the strongest statement about the urgent need for climate action ever issued by a major party in this country. ...
We believe the United States must lead in forging a robust global solution to the climate crisis. We are committed to a national mobilization, and to leading a global effort to mobilize nations to address this threat on a scale not seen since World War II. In the first 100 days of the next administration, the President will convene a summit of the world’s best engineers, climate scientists, policy experts, activists, and indigenous communities to chart a course to solve the climate crisis.
:thumbsup:
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by No_Mind » Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:39 am

The funny thing is .. the election is not about Hillary or Democratic Party anymore.

Some think Trump is a terrible racist and some think Trump is a wonderful racist. It is a race to see which side wins. No matter what .. the result will be all about Trump.

Some guy. Hats off to him.
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by pulga » Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:45 am

The DNC was willing to give Bernie almost anything he wanted in its platform in return for his endorsement of Hillary.

But alas, ...

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by pulga » Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:52 am

Tom Barrack talks to Charlie Rose about Trump whom he has known for the last 40 years. The interview is certainly more balanced and thoughtful that most of what the media is providing us these days.

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by chownah » Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:43 am

pulga wrote:The DNC was willing to give Bernie almost anything he wanted in its platform in return for his endorsement of Hillary.

But alas, ...
The article is from may 27th....I think things have changed since then.
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by pulga » Sat Jul 23, 2016 5:01 am

chownah wrote: The article is from may 27th....I think things have changed since then.
In what way?

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by chownah » Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:51 pm

pulga wrote:
chownah wrote: The article is from may 27th....I think things have changed since then.
In what way?
Sanders is no longer running and he has endorsed clinton I think (seems like I read that he did).
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by sattva » Sat Jul 23, 2016 6:05 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:Hillary Clinton picks Senator Tim Kaine to be her VP running mate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Kaine

Apparently he is a centrist, lots of political experience; mayor, lt. governor, governor, senator.
Yes, nothing like ignoring all of the Bernie Sanders fans. She thinks with this VP pick she is going to get white men to come to her side and instead she just ignored a large part of the Democratic party. I look for many progressives to go to the Libertarian or Green party or just not to vote. I think she just gave the election to Trump with her choice of running mate. :tantrum: Needless to say, I am not happy.

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Jul 24, 2016 6:16 am

Greetings,
sattva wrote:She thinks with this VP pick she is going to get white men to come to her side...
If that's the case, it's a sad state of affairs when we pick our politicians based on criteria such as their genitalia or the pigment of their skin.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by cjmacie » Sun Jul 24, 2016 12:35 pm

sattva wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:Hillary Clinton picks Senator Tim Kaine to be her VP running mate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Kaine

Apparently he is a centrist, lots of political experience; mayor, lt. governor, governor, senator.
Yes, nothing like ignoring all of the Bernie Sanders fans. She thinks with this VP pick she is going to get white men to come to her side and instead she just ignored a large part of the Democratic party. I look for many progressives to go to the Libertarian or Green party or just not to vote. I think she just gave the election to Trump with her choice of running mate. :tantrum: Needless to say, I am not happy.
Bernie Sanders fans are just that -- like screaming adolescent Beatles fans. Mr. Sanders isn't even a member of the Democratic party. He's more a pied piper, seducing young, impressionable people with messianic promises. The same phenomenon as when I was college age -- in the 1960's, and at UC.Berkeley, to boot. Radical organizers, instigators from the East coast manipulating the young, playing on their sense of uncertainty entering a complicated and not always so friendly a world as it was back at home. And the same phenomenon when my parents were of college age -- in the 1930's radical organizers (some actually the parents of those in the 1960's, e.g. Herbert Aptheker, the father of Bettina who was a leader at Berkeley) pushing socialism, even, in those days, communism.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by chownah » Sun Jul 24, 2016 2:32 pm

cjmacie wrote: Bernie Sanders fans are just that -- like screaming adolescent Beatles fans. Mr. Sanders isn't even a member of the Democratic party. He's more a pied piper, seducing young, impressionable people with messianic promises. The same phenomenon as when I was college age -- in the 1960's, and at UC.Berkeley, to boot. Radical organizers, instigators from the East coast manipulating the young, playing on their sense of uncertainty entering a complicated and not always so friendly a world as it was back at home. And the same phenomenon when my parents were of college age -- in the 1930's radical organizers (some actually the parents of those in the 1960's, e.g. Herbert Aptheker, the father of Bettina who was a leader at Berkeley) pushing socialism, even, in those days, communism.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana
I guess that young impressionable people must make up the majority of the voters in Burlington, Vermont since he did get himself elected as mayor there 4 times in a row....and in In 1987, U.S. News & World Report ranked Sanders as one of America's best mayors so there must be alot of young impressionable people working and making the decisions at U.S. News & World Report.
And I guess that young impressionale people must make up the majority of the voters in his congressional district in Vermont since he did get himself elected to the US House of Representatives where he served for 16 years. (Those impressionable youth are getting older)
And I guess there were still a majority of young impressionable people in his congressional district in 2006 when he was elected as US Senator (by approx. 2 to 1 margin) and again in 2012 when he was re-elected BY WINNING 71% OF THE VOTE....MY GOD....LOOKS LIKE 71% OF THE VOTERS IN HIS CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT WERE YOUNG IMPRESSIONABLE PEOPLE.

I guess it is this proliferation of young impressionable people which is making Vermont the hell hole it has become.
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by rowboat » Sun Jul 24, 2016 7:22 pm

Image

Donald Trump, Breitbart, the alt-right, and the rise of anti-Semitism
Trump has dog-whistled at racists so much for so long that they feel resurgent. They call themselves the “alt-right,” a grab-bag category that includes nativists, eugenicists, bigots, anti-Semites, misogynists, reactionaries, aristocrats, monarchists, isolationists—basically anyone who hates today’s America and the modern world and the men and women, of any race or religion, who flourish in it.

For a while the alt-right was confined to the comment sections on websites, then it moved to Twitter, then it created websites of its own, and now, most disturbingly, its ideas, such as they are, are being published and defended and celebrated on sites associated with the conservative movement and Republican politics.

So, on March 29, Breitbart.com published “An Establishment Conservative’s Guide to the Alt-Right,” a long taxonomy in which authors Allum Bokhari and Milo Yiannopoulos argue, “There are many things that separate the alternative right from old-school racist skinheads (to whom they are often idiotically compared), but one thing stands out above all else: intelligence.”
The Coming Conservative Dark Age

The Nazi Tweets of ‘Trump God Emperor’
THE first tweet arrived as cryptic code, a signal to the army of the “alt-right” that I barely knew existed: “Hello ((Weisman)).” @CyberTrump was responding to my recent tweet of an essay by Robert Kagan on the emergence of fascism in the United States.

“Care to explain?” I answered, intuiting that my last name in brackets denoted my Jewish faith.

“What, ho, the vaunted Ashkenazi intelligence, hahaha!” CyberTrump came back. “It’s a dog whistle, fool. Belling the cat for my fellow goyim.” With the cat belled, the horde was unleashed.

The anti-Semitic hate, much of it from self-identified Donald J. Trump supporters, hasn’t stopped since. Trump God Emperor sent me the Nazi iconography of the shiftless, hooknosed Jew. I was served an image of the gates of Auschwitz, the famous words “Arbeit Macht Frei” replaced without irony with “Machen Amerika Great.” Holocaust taunts, like a path of dollar bills leading into an oven, were followed by Holocaust denial. The Jew as leftist puppet master from @DonaldTrumpLA was joined by the Jew as conservative fifth columnist, orchestrating war for Israel. That one came from someone who tagged himself a proud future member of the Trump Deportation Squad.
The Nazi Tweets of ‘Trump God Emperor’

The alt-right is more than warmed-over white supremacy. It’s that, but way way weirder.
The affinity between gamers and right politics makes sense. "It’s not hard to see why this ideology would catch-on with white male geeks," Klint Finley writes in his excellent explainer on neoreaction. "It tells them that they are the natural rulers of the world, but that they are simultaneously being oppressed by a secret religious order. And the more media attention is paid to workplace inequality, gentrification and the wealth gap, the more their bias is confirmed."

"While GamerGate started off as a very diverse, vocal opponent to what they saw was unethical journalism (before it was debunked), many of the anonymous /pol/ rightists would take advantage of its anti-left character by creating sock-puppets," an anonymous 4channer and ex-Gamergater wrote last year. "Today it is hard to find a 4chan user that doesn’t have an attachment to far right politics."

And this enthusiasm for far-right politics has bled into Trumpism.
The alt-right is more than warmed-over white supremacy. It’s that, but way way weirder.

Geeks for Monarchy: The Rise of the Neoreactionaries

To call these claims “controversial” would be putting it lightly, but they underpin much of anti-egalitarian and pro-traditionalist claims neoreactionaries make. Delving into the scientific debate over race, genetics and IQ is beyond the scope of this article, but I’ve included some links on the topic in the reading list.

It’s not hard to see why this ideology would catch-on with white male geeks. It tells them that they are the natural rulers of the world, but that they are simultaneously being oppressed by a secret religious order. And the more media attention is paid to workplace inequality, gentrification and the wealth gap, the more their bias is confirmed. And the more the neoreactionaries and techbros act out, the more the media heat they bring.
Neoreactionaries...
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by Modus.Ponens » Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:07 pm

Rowboat,

I am with you when it comes to the dangers of the alt right. Although it doesn't seem to be a unified and homogenous movement, I've seen these guys obsessing with white genocide. And this supposed white genocide is being attributed to jewish plots to kill all white people. Also, many of these guys want to remove the vote from women and blame women in general for everything going wrong with the West. That's when they're not demonizing jews or praising christian dogma, tradition and the white race.

This is undoubtably dangerous and it's one inch away from nazism in its ideological deliriums.

However one of the things that best feeds these people is when liberals lie. When liberals lie these guys feel they have a ground to stand on. So Donald Trump is not the only responsible for this ressurgement of far right. When liberals try to put every criticism of the (regressive) left in the same bag they only remove credibility from themselves. There are legitimate criticisms of the left. Because truth matters and no group is perfect.

Gamer Gate was a legitimate criticism of corrupt gamer press and the politicization and propagandization of videogames. It used to be conservatives against rock lyrics and video games and Harry Potter's witchcraft. Now the regressive left is using the same tactics with different ends. And this is just the tip of the postmodernist vast collection of lies.

The point is that the Objective Left is neither the Right, nor the Alt Right. The Objective Left is an inner criticism of the lies coming from the Regressive Left.

The only advice I can give to people who want Hillary to win is to stop perpetuating lies that ultimately end up delegitimising movements with potential for good and give arguments for the Alt Right to thrive. I know many people perpetuate these lies without knowing they're lies. But it has to stop. If regressives stop with the lies and assume the role of adult in the room on the few, but very important issues, they're not being the adults, the Democrats will win.
He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
(Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by rowboat » Mon Jul 25, 2016 12:05 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:Rowboat,

However one of the things that best feeds these people is when liberals lie. When liberals lie these guys feel they have ground to stand. So Donald Trump is not the only responsible for this rezsurgement of far right. When liberals try to put every criticism of the (regressive) left in the same bag they only remove credibility from themselves. There are legitimate criticisms of the left. Because truth matters.
Aha. I see. (/s) Interestingly, the "regressive left" narrative, especially relating to Islamophobia, is found in the works of alt-right elder statesmen like Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins. Not to be rude, but I can't take you seriously, Modus.Ponens, with your clearly rhetorical argument by assertion.

(Your other comments regarding GamerGate etc. are nonsense also. I am happy to discuss this with you via PM if you wish.)
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Jul 25, 2016 12:10 am

Greetings rowboat,

Such conversation can be had publicly if you like, but it's probably best done in a new conversation as these are big topics to unpick and are not directly relevant to this poll (even if they may influence who we "voted" for).

Thanks.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by pulga » Mon Jul 25, 2016 12:22 am

It is ironic that while Ivanka -- who converted to Judaism -- and her Jewish husband Jared Kushner are prominent players in Trump's campaign -- often appearing with him in public -- Chelsea's Jewish husband Marc Mezvinsky rarely appears on the campaign trail. He made his first and only appearance in May of 2016. Though I don't believe it is because he is Jewish, but rather because he manages a hedge fund. And not surprisingly, given that we're dealing with Hillary Clinton, there is evidence that she provided him insider information in his bond investments.
Last edited by pulga on Mon Jul 25, 2016 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by rowboat » Mon Jul 25, 2016 12:25 am

Paul Davy wrote:Greetings rowboat,

Such conversation can be had publicly if you like, but it's probably best done in a new conversation as these are big topics to unpick and are not directly relevant to this poll (even if they may influence who we "voted" for).

Thanks.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Yes, not to derail the thread. I have been rightfully admonished for that in the past.

:smile:
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Jul 25, 2016 1:20 am

Greetings rowboat,

Actually, I mean it more from the perspective that it's a genuinely interesting and complex discussion to be had... as what was once more easily categorized as "the left" and "the right" has now fractured into smaller factions due to various disagreements (usually along the libertarian vs authoritarian axis).

In the interests of mutual understanding, it may be useful to explore some of these points of division, lest we erroneously tar anyone with too broad a brush, and inadvertently misconstrue their perspectives, and in doing so, waste time and energy arguing with strawmen.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: POTUS 2016, part 3

Post by alan » Mon Jul 25, 2016 1:21 am

Trump is an extreme narcissist, an un-aware egotist, and a person who is unbound by the values that have "made America great".
I can see in an instant that he has major psychological problems.
Electing Trump would be a disaster, not just for America, but for the world. I'm surprised anyone smart enough to get into Buddhism might also be dumb enough not to see right through Trump. He is just so easy to read.

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