Should Engaged Buddhists militate against abortion?

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tiltbillings
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Re: Should Engaged Buddhists militate against abortion?

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:34 pm

Cormac Brown wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:And do you seriously think carrying to term a pregnancy that is the result of a brutal rape, is necessarily good for one mental health?
Much, much better than the remorse that would come from killing your own child, not to mention the subsequent trauma that could come from repeated torture in Hell (again, not a mere "religious belief," but direct insight on the part of the Buddha). Even if she were to abandon it to an orphanage after giving birth to it, it'd be immeasurably better than killing it.
Again, you are expressing your religious beliefs, which may not be shared by the victim in question, but you seem quite willing to victimize her even further by laying a heavy-duty Buddhist guilt trip upon her. But interestingly you keep dodging the question I have asked you more than once: So, she carries to term her pregnancy, are you willing to support her child and help her with her therapy?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Should Engaged Buddhists militate against abortion?

Post by Cormac Brown » Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:36 pm

tiltbillings wrote:The problem is that you have not shown that the Buddha said directly the a fetus is a human being.
He doesn't have to say it directly. The fact that a monk would be expelled from the Sangha for encouraging abortion quite clearly draws the inference. Rule = Don't kill a human being. Sub-clause = Don't encourage another to kill a human being, including abortions.

Therefore, having an abortion - at any stage - would, in the Buddha's eyes, be killing a human being. It's really indisputable.
“I in the present who am a worthy one, rightly self-awakened, am a
teacher of action, a teacher of activity, a teacher of persistence. But the
worthless man Makkhali contradicts even me, (saying,) ‘There is no
action. There is no activity. There is no persistence.’ "
AN 3.138, trans. Ven. Thanissaro

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Re: Should Engaged Buddhists militate against abortion?

Post by Cormac Brown » Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:53 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Cormac Brown wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:And do you seriously think carrying to term a pregnancy that is the result of a brutal rape, is necessarily good for one mental health?
Much, much better than the remorse that would come from killing your own child, not to mention the subsequent trauma that could come from repeated torture in Hell (again, not a mere "religious belief," but direct insight on the part of the Buddha). Even if she were to abandon it to an orphanage after giving birth to it, it'd be immeasurably better than killing it.
Again, you are expressing your religious beliefs, which may not be shared by the victim in question, but you seem quite willing to victimize her even further by laying a heavy-duty Buddhist guilt trip upon her. But interestingly you keep dodging the question I have asked you more than once: So, she carries to term her pregnancy, are you willing to support her child and help her with her therapy?

Again, I'm not - I'm communicating the direct insight of the Buddha, that destroying life has negative consequences. Are you declaring your view that this is mere conjecture on his part?

How is it "victimising" to warn her of the potential dangers of destroying life? Would it be "victimisation" to warn somebody of the potential negative consequences of robbing a bank? As the Buddha said - although apparently you give short shrift to what he said - warning her from taking life would be acting in her benefit. And it would only be a "guilt trip" if I told her of the consequences after she had killed it. Please refrain from your sensationalist approach and use some forethought.

Finally, I haven't dodged your question - I've already answered it. Please read more carefully.

To reiterate, and to finally take my leave, the more compassionate Buddhist will certainly advise pregnant women and doctors, men and women, not to carry out abortions. The less compassionate Buddhist will clearly see that abortion is a wrong course, but will not bother telling this to others. He/she, however, who disbelieves in negative kammic consequences for taking life, can't call themselves Buddhist at all, for it clearly shows that they have not taken refuge in the Buddha by wholeheartedly believing that his insight into kamma was good and true.

Over and out.
“I in the present who am a worthy one, rightly self-awakened, am a
teacher of action, a teacher of activity, a teacher of persistence. But the
worthless man Makkhali contradicts even me, (saying,) ‘There is no
action. There is no activity. There is no persistence.’ "
AN 3.138, trans. Ven. Thanissaro

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tiltbillings
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Re: Should Engaged Buddhists militate against abortion?

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:54 pm

Cormac Brown wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:And do you seriously think carrying to term a pregnancy that is the result of a brutal rape, is necessarily good for one mental health?
Much, much better than the remorse that would come from killing your own child, not to mention the subsequent trauma that could come from repeated torture in Hell (again, not a mere "religious belief," but direct insight on the part of the Buddha).
You believe it is true, and Christians make exactly the same sort of arguments holding that their religious beliefs are the truly true truth. I guess I'll be seeing you out there on the anti-abortion picket-line in front of your local Planned Parenthood clinic.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Should Engaged Buddhists militate against abortion?

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:02 pm

Cormac Brown wrote: . . . To reiterate, and to finally take my leave, the more compassionate Buddhist will certainly advise pregnant women and doctors, men and women, not to carry out abortions. The less compassionate Buddhist will clearly see that abortion is a wrong course, but will not bother telling this to others. He/she, however, who disbelieves in negative kammic consequences for taking life, can't call themselves Buddhist at all, for it clearly shows that they have not taken refuge in the Buddha by wholeheartedly believing that his insight into kamma was good and true.

Over and out.
Over and out. So, from you the woman (to use your example) who was brutally raped and carries her pregnancy to term gets no meaningful support afterwards.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: Should Engaged Buddhists militate against abortion?

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:03 pm

Cormac Brown wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The problem is that you have not shown that the Buddha said directly the a fetus is a human being.
He doesn't have to say it directly. The fact that a monk would be expelled from the Sangha for encouraging abortion quite clearly draws the inference. Rule = Don't kill a human being. Sub-clause = Don't encourage another to kill a human being, including abortions.

Therefore, having an abortion - at any stage - would, in the Buddha's eyes, be killing a human being. It's really indisputable.
Then why did not the Buddha directly say to the laity that there should be no abortion?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Should Engaged Buddhists militate against abortion?

Post by ihrjordan » Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:27 pm

There's no discussion with you. You're firm in your beliefs and no matter what I or anyone else may tell you that won't change. The sutta I had posted here was clearly addressing both lay and monastics alike...it would take an act of willful deception to miss this :
"Now I will tell you the layman's duty. Following it a lay-disciple would be virtuous; for it is not possible for one occupied with the household life to realize the complete bhikkhu practice (dhamma).

"He should not kill a living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should he incite another to kill. Do not injure any being, either strong or weak, in the world.

"A disciple should avoid taking anything from anywhere knowing it (to belong to another). He should not steal nor incite another to steal. He should completely avoid theft.

"A wise man should avoid unchastity as (he would avoid falling into) a pit of glowing charcoal. If unable to lead a celibate life, he should not go to another's wife. Sn 2.14
Notice it says both A wise man should avoid unchastity as well as nor incite another to kill as well as delineating who it is not alright to harm those being both the strong and the WEAK. This isn't addressed to the elite...this is "the layman's duty" This applies to every case in which someone may try and justify killing such as in Euthanasia, abortion, killing the terminally ill etc. But if you think abortion may be ok in certain circumstances who am I to change your mind right? We are acrobats and I must watch my own two feet. We all have our opinions I just hope we're REALLY confident in our judgments, but I've said all I need to say.

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Re: Should Engaged Buddhists militate against abortion?

Post by ihrjordan » Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:30 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Cormac Brown wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The problem is that you have not shown that the Buddha said directly the a fetus is a human being.
He doesn't have to say it directly. The fact that a monk would be expelled from the Sangha for encouraging abortion quite clearly draws the inference. Rule = Don't kill a human being. Sub-clause = Don't encourage another to kill a human being, including abortions.

Therefore, having an abortion - at any stage - would, in the Buddha's eyes, be killing a human being. It's really indisputable.
Then why did not the Buddha directly say to the laity that there should be no abortion?
He does. You know with the five precepts...You see in Buddhism the lay community will typically hold to what are called the 5 moral precepts which don't allow us to kill any being wherever.

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Re: Should Engaged Buddhists militate against abortion?

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:42 pm

ihrjordan wrote:He does. You know with the five precepts...You see in Buddhism the lay community will typically hold to what are called the 5 moral precepts which don't allow us to kill any being wherever.
And where in any of the suttas discussion of the precepts is abortion mentioned?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Should Engaged Buddhists militate against abortion?

Post by ihrjordan » Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:44 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
ihrjordan wrote:He does. You know with the five precepts...You see in Buddhism the lay community will typically hold to what are called the 5 moral precepts which don't allow us to kill any being wherever.
And where in any of the suttas discussion of the precepts is abortion mentioned?
Nightmares about abortion?
I'm 15, i aborted my baby 3 weeks ago I was going to keep the baby, i had names picked out Abby Grace for a girl and Samuel Benjamin for a boy. I went shopping and got a few items for the baby, My parents convinced me to abort and ever since I've had this nightmare. I'm in the hospital room holding a beautiful baby girl, I'm talking to her and shes cooing. I'm really happy and excited to have her with me, The room becomes really dark and a few seconds later i can see myself again except my baby is gone and I'm sitting on the bed curled up in a ball crying. The last thing i remember is I'm standing in a cemetery looking down on a small headstone that read Abby Grace
I'm not going to link where I've got this but if you search "nightmares after abortion" you'll run into some truly twisted situations. Is the above scenario something you'd be ok with happening to someone?

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tiltbillings
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Re: Should Engaged Buddhists militate against abortion?

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Jul 19, 2016 1:34 am

ihrjordan wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
ihrjordan wrote:He does. You know with the five precepts...You see in Buddhism the lay community will typically hold to what are called the 5 moral precepts which don't allow us to kill any being wherever.
And where in any of the suttas discussion of the precepts is abortion mentioned?
Nightmares about abortion?
I'm 15, i aborted my baby 3 weeks ago I was going to keep the baby, i had names picked out Abby Grace for a girl and Samuel Benjamin for a boy. I went shopping and got a few items for the baby, My parents convinced me to abort and ever since I've had this nightmare. I'm in the hospital room holding a beautiful baby girl, I'm talking to her and shes cooing. I'm really happy and excited to have her with me, The room becomes really dark and a few seconds later i can see myself again except my baby is gone and I'm sitting on the bed curled up in a ball crying. The last thing i remember is I'm standing in a cemetery looking down on a small headstone that read Abby Grace
I'm not going to link where I've got this but if you search "nightmares after abortion" you'll run into some truly twisted situations. Is the above scenario something you'd be ok with happening to someone?
You have told that you need to link things that you quote. Any further non-linking will result in your msgs being removed. https://answers.yahoo.com/question/inde ... 048AA5RJn4


Unquestionably having an abortion can be especially difficult for some. It should never entered lightly, and abortions should not be common place.

Also, how about actually answering my question.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Should Engaged Buddhists militate against abortion?

Post by ihrjordan » Tue Jul 19, 2016 2:07 am

How about using some discernment? Abortion is killing.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Should Engaged Buddhists militate against abortion?

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Jul 19, 2016 2:10 am

ihrjordan wrote:How about using some discernment? Abortion is killing.
Thank you for sharing your opinion. Now, try getting back to the OP.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Should Engaged Buddhists militate against abortion?

Post by chownah » Tue Jul 19, 2016 2:40 am

ihrjordan wrote:
chownah wrote:
ihrjordan wrote:
“A wise man should avoid married life as if it were a burning pit of live coals. From the contact comes sensation, from sensation thirst, from thirst clinging, by ceasing from that, the soul is delivered from all sinful existence.”

– Lord Buddha
Can you post where you got this from?
chownah
edit: Also, your post doesn't seem to be about the topic which is "Should Engaged Buddhists militate against abortion?"....you seem to be posting on the topic of abstinence which is a different thing entirely. If someone is pregnant then abstinence will not answer the question about abortion.
chownah
"If he should speak with a lay-disciple, with someone else or with another bhikkhu, he should speak on the subtle Dhamma, not slandering others nor gossiping. Some set themselves up as disputants in opposition to others; those of little wisdom we do not praise; attachments bind them and they are carried away by their emotions. [5]

"Having heard the Dhamma taught by the Sugata [6] and considered it, a disciple of Him of excellent wisdom should wisely make use of food, a dwelling, a bed, a seat and water for washing the robe. But a bhikkhu should not be soiled by (clinging to) these things, as a lotus is not wetted by a drop of water.

"Now I will tell you the layman's duty. Following it a lay-disciple would be virtuous; for it is not possible for one occupied with the household life to realize the complete bhikkhu practice (dhamma).

"He should not kill a living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should he incite another to kill. Do not injure any being, either strong or weak, in the world.

"A disciple should avoid taking anything from anywhere knowing it (to belong to another). He should not steal nor incite another to steal. He should completely avoid theft.

"A wise man should avoid unchastity as (he would avoid falling into) a pit of glowing charcoal. If unable to lead a celibate life, he should not go to another's wife.

"Having entered a royal court or a company of people he should not speak lies. He should not speak lies (himself) nor incite others to do so. He should completely avoid falsehood.

"A layman who has chosen to practice this Dhamma should not indulge in the drinking of intoxicants. He should not drink them nor encourage others to do so; realizing that it leads to madness. Through intoxication foolish people perform evil deeds and cause other heedless people to do likewise. He should avoid intoxication, this occasion for demerit, which stupefies the mind, and is the pleasure of foolish people.


Do not kill a living being;
do not take what is not given;
do not speak a lie;
do not drink intoxicants;
abstain from sexual intercourse;
do not eat food at night, at the wrong time;
do not wear flower-garlands nor use perfumes;
use the ground as a bed or sleep on a mat.
Sn 2.14
I do not find the quote you produced in this text which you have provided. Please will you provide the source for the quote :
“A wise man should avoid married life as if it were a burning pit of live coals. From the contact comes sensation, from sensation thirst, from thirst clinging, by ceasing from that, the soul is delivered from all sinful existence.”

– Lord Buddha
[/quote]


chownah

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Re: Should Engaged Buddhists militate against abortion?

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Jul 19, 2016 3:21 am

ihrjordan wrote:
chownah wrote: I do not find the quote you produced in this text which you have provided. Please will you provide the source for the quote :
“A wise man should avoid married life as if it were a burning pit of live coals. From the contact comes sensation, from sensation thirst, from thirst clinging, by ceasing from that, the soul is delivered from all sinful existence.”

– Lord Buddha

chownah
https://trueayurveda.wordpress.com/2015 ... ga-part-2/
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Should Engaged Buddhists militate against abortion?

Post by Aloka » Tue Jul 19, 2016 5:13 am

A comment from the Dalai Lama:
“Of course, abortion, from a Buddhist viewpoint, is an act of killing and is negative, generally speaking. But it depends on the circumstances… I think abortion should be approved or disapproved according to each circumstance”
and from Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche:
.. if the mother-to-be is unwilling or unable to care for a child, then there is no virtue in giving birth, especially through a sense of religious obligation or fear. That is impure motivation and would prolong the suffering of both the mother and the child. Bringing someone into the world under unfavorable circumstances without the necessary supports for the child to grow and be nourished only increases suffering. This is equivalent to dying not just one time but many times in one lifetime, for both the mother and the child. Even though it is against Buddhist precepts to take a life, it is also not virtuous to give birth under circumstances that would increase suffering for oneself or another—a suffering that seems greater than ending a pregnancy that is unwanted.
source for both quotes: http://www.lionsroar.com/ask-the-teachers-30/

.

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Re: Should Engaged Buddhists militate against abortion?

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Jul 19, 2016 5:16 am

Aloka wrote:A comment from the Dalai Lama:
“Of course, abortion, from a Buddhist viewpoint, is an act of killing and is negative, generally speaking. But it depends on the circumstances… I think abortion should be approved or disapproved according to each circumstance”
and from Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche:
.. if the mother-to-be is unwilling or unable to care for a child, then there is no virtue in giving birth, especially through a sense of religious obligation or fear. That is impure motivation and would prolong the suffering of both the mother and the child. Bringing someone into the world under unfavorable circumstances without the necessary supports for the child to grow and be nourished only increases suffering. This is equivalent to dying not just one time but many times in one lifetime, for both the mother and the child. Even though it is against Buddhist precepts to take a life, it is also not virtuous to give birth under circumstances that would increase suffering for oneself or another—a suffering that seems greater than ending a pregnancy that is unwanted.
source for both quotes: http://www.lionsroar.com/ask-the-teachers-30/

.
Thanks for posting these quotes. The full article, though rather brief, is worth reading, showing a great deal of life experience and compassion grounded in the Dhamma.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Should Engaged Buddhists militate against abortion?

Post by Ben » Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:15 am

Aloka wrote:A comment from the Dalai Lama:
“Of course, abortion, from a Buddhist viewpoint, is an act of killing and is negative, generally speaking. But it depends on the circumstances… I think abortion should be approved or disapproved according to each circumstance”
and from Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche:
.. if the mother-to-be is unwilling or unable to care for a child, then there is no virtue in giving birth, especially through a sense of religious obligation or fear. That is impure motivation and would prolong the suffering of both the mother and the child. Bringing someone into the world under unfavorable circumstances without the necessary supports for the child to grow and be nourished only increases suffering. This is equivalent to dying not just one time but many times in one lifetime, for both the mother and the child. Even though it is against Buddhist precepts to take a life, it is also not virtuous to give birth under circumstances that would increase suffering for oneself or another—a suffering that seems greater than ending a pregnancy that is unwanted.
source for both quotes: http://www.lionsroar.com/ask-the-teachers-30/

.
Thank you, Aloka.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
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Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
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Re: Should Engaged Buddhists militate against abortion?

Post by Buddha Vacana » Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:41 am

Why should abortion be the only solution in case of gang rape? Since we are talking about state laws, another solution would be to help the mother take care of the child, or if she really doesn't want him, he could still be taken care of in an orphanage.

Aloka wrote:A comment from the Dalai Lama:
“Of course, abortion, from a Buddhist viewpoint, is an act of killing and is negative, generally speaking. But it depends on the circumstances… I think abortion should be approved or disapproved according to each circumstance”
Since we are now into justifying abortion, can anyone explain with quotes in what way this opinion is compatible with the Buddha's teaching? Or is it that we don't care any more about his teaching?
Vinaya wrote:"Bhikkhus, whatever I have not objected to, saying, 'This is not allowable,' if it fits in with what is not allowable, if it goes against what is allowable, that is not allowable for you.
...
"And whatever I have not permitted, saying, 'This is allowable,' if it fits in with what is not allowable, if it goes against what is allowable, that is not allowable for you.
Vinaya wrote:“When a monk is ordained he should not intentionally deprive a living thing of life, even if it is only an ant. Whatever monk deprives a human being of life even down to causing abortion, he becomes not a (true) recluse, not a son of the Sakyans. As a flat stone, broken in half, becomes (something) not to be put together again, even so a monk, having intentionally deprived a human being of life, becomes not a (true) recluse, not a son of the Sakyans. This is a thing not to be done by you as long as life lasts. - Book of the Discipline, I.B. Horner - Vol. I - VI (edited by Ven. Brahmali) p.1523
I don't see any relativism in this statement. It says no. Period.

from Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche:
Bringing someone into the world under unfavorable circumstances without the necessary supports for the child to grow and be nourished only increases suffering. This is equivalent to dying not just one time but many times in one lifetime, for both the mother and the child. Even though it is against Buddhist precepts to take a life, it is also not virtuous to give birth under circumstances that would increase suffering for oneself or another—a suffering that seems greater than ending a pregnancy that is unwanted.
Vinaya wrote:Parajika 3
Should any bhikkhu intentionally deprive a human being of life, or search for an assassin for him, or praise the advantages of death, or incite him to die (saying,): "My good man, what use is this evil, miserable life to you? Death would be better for you than life," or with such an idea in mind, such a purpose in mind, should in various ways praise the advantages of death or incite him to die, he also is defeated and no longer in affiliation.
Last edited by Buddha Vacana on Tue Jul 19, 2016 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Should Engaged Buddhists militate against abortion?

Post by Ben » Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:51 am

Buddha Vacana wrote:Why should abortion be the only solution in case of gang rape? Since we are talking about state laws, another solution would be to help the mother take care of the child, or if she really doesn't want him, he could still be taken care of in an orphanage.

Aloka wrote:A comment from the Dalai Lama:
“Of course, abortion, from a Buddhist viewpoint, is an act of killing and is negative, generally speaking. But it depends on the circumstances… I think abortion should be approved or disapproved according to each circumstance”
Since we are now into justifying abortion, can anyone explain with quotes in what way this opinion is compatible with the Buddha's teaching? Or is it that we don't care any more about his teaching?
Vinaya wrote:"Bhikkhus, whatever I have not objected to, saying, 'This is not allowable,' if it fits in with what is not allowable, if it goes against what is allowable, that is not allowable for you.
...
"And whatever I have not permitted, saying, 'This is allowable,' if it fits in with what is not allowable, if it goes against what is allowable, that is not allowable for you.
Vinaya wrote:“When a monk is ordained he should not intentionally deprive a living thing of life, even if it is only an ant. Whatever monk deprives a human being of life even down to causing abortion, he becomes not a (true) recluse, not a son of the Sakyans. As a flat stone, broken in half, becomes (something) not to be put together again, even so a monk, having intentionally deprived a human being of life, becomes not a (true) recluse, not a son of the Sakyans. This is a thing not to be done by you as long as life lasts.
I don't see any relativism in this statement. It says no. Period.

from Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche:
Bringing someone into the world under unfavorable circumstances without the necessary supports for the child to grow and be nourished only increases suffering. This is equivalent to dying not just one time but many times in one lifetime, for both the mother and the child. Even though it is against Buddhist precepts to take a life, it is also not virtuous to give birth under circumstances that would increase suffering for oneself or another—a suffering that seems greater than ending a pregnancy that is unwanted.
Vinaya wrote:Parajika 3
Should any bhikkhu intentionally deprive a human being of life, or search for an assassin for him, or praise the advantages of death, or incite him to die (saying,): "My good man, what use is this evil, miserable life to you? Death would be better for you than life," or with such an idea in mind, such a purpose in mind, should in various ways praise the advantages of death or incite him to die, he also is defeated and no longer in affiliation.
Really, its not a terribly nuanced response, is it? We continue to castigate those who choose to have an abortion (for whatever reason). There's no empathy and there's certainly no impulse to examine the causes and conditions that have led to an unwanted pregnancy and seemingly, no desire to address the causes and conditions that lead to an unwanted pregnancy (lack of access to birth control, education, sexual violence) and actually make a real difference.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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