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Re: Victims of Communism

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:20 pm
by The Thinker
In my lifetime capitalism has and does control the world order, Communism at least had the decency to die, the broken mathematics and corrupt nature of the capitalist system refuses even the mildest of changes. (power to the few)

Billionaire Chinese businessmen taking over football clubs in the UK, suggest to me that modern day communism is a myth. (The few controlling the many)

Re: Victims of Communism

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 4:30 pm
by binocular
chownah wrote:Have you forgotten that for those who ascribe to the victims of communism ideology there is no appropriate time or place or scale and in that ideology communism is evil, degenerate, inhuman, degrading, malevalent, etc. and it even seems to me , though I may be wrong, that even to think about communism without coming to these conclusions is wrong thought. I think that one of the dangers of the victims of communism ideology is that if children buy into it when they are too young and impressionable then they might very well develop an internalised belief in thought crime....that thinking certain things is immoral.
Sure. In Europe, this is called "American paranoia." Many American films and tv shows have this particular kind of paranoia as a theme; it's a meme even and if one doesn't understand it, those films and tv shows become incomprehensible.
Although it's becoming more and more common among Europeans as well.

Re: Victims of Communism

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 4:51 pm
by Modus.Ponens
Binocular,

Yes, I've been alive, jobless and without reasons to believe my life would get better. I haven't experienced torture, slavery and, obviously, murder. But, jumping to your last sentence, if you claim to be uncertain about which situation is worse, and claim that horror can be equal, or similar, in both situations, I suspect you are not being entirely honest.

It's not by accident that torture, slavery and political executions are regarded as horrific by most people and on a different level of suffering than unemployment.

For example, the precepts have a lot more to say about killing, stealing and cruelty than unemployment, or comparable situations.

Re: Victims of Communism

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:04 pm
by Modus.Ponens
Chownah, I was guilty of the communist thought crime until my late 20s. Now I'm guilty of wrong think, but that's a whole other story. ;)

But all jokes aside and speaking quite honestly, I think calling the victims of communism an "ideology" is morally obscene.

And you haven't replied to my main question yet. So I'll ask it again, perhaps for the 10th time. How would you implement a communist system without mass violence? And now please define communism as you want, so you don't evade the question by criticising my definition of communism, and then set out a plan for its implementation by peaceful means.

Re: Victims of Communism

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:27 pm
by binocular
Modus.Ponens wrote:Yes, I've been alive, jobless and without reasons to believe my life would get better. I haven't experienced torture, slavery and, obviously, murder. But, jumping to your last sentence, if you claim to be uncertain about which situation is worse, and claim that horror can be equal, or similar, in both situations, I suspect you are not being entirely honest.
Many people will attest that psychological abuse can in some ways be worse than physical abuse. After a person reaches their breaking point, it doesn't matter anymore which is which and how much more of either is heaped onto them.
It's not by accident that torture, slavery and political executions are regarded as horrific by most people and on a different level of suffering than unemployment.
For many people -- although not all -- unemployment tends to be accompanied by severe social stigma, descent into abject poverty and disease, and death in misery.
For many people, unemployment is basically a death sentence. And in a capitalist system, such a death sentence can be earned with a minor transgression of a tenet of political correctness.

Re: Victims of Communism

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 2:49 am
by Modus.Ponens
Binocular,

I have you in higher regard than that. Would you say that what happened in Awschwitz to jews, blacks and roma, is comparable to the suffering of unemployment?

It's not as if torturers, enslavers and mass murderers, wether nazis or communists, treated their victims psychologically well apart from this explicit physical violence.

Do you really think this is a reasonable comparison?! Are you actually thinking this through?

Re: Victims of Communism

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:28 am
by chownah
For many people, unemployment is basically a death sentence
Only for those with psychological problems.....or perhaps in some really really really represive regime. This is not a valid concept for a serious discussion in this thread in my opinion.
chownah

Re: Victims of Communism

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 4:07 am
by Dan74
Modus.Ponens wrote:Binocular,

I have you in higher regard than that. Would you say that what happened in Awschwitz to jews, blacks and roma, is comparable to the suffering of unemployment?

It's not as if torturers, enslavers and mass murderers, wether nazis or communists, treated their victims psychologically well apart from this explicit physical violence.

Do you really think this is a reasonable comparison?! Are you actually thinking this through?
MP, you started with a broadbrush claim that under Communism you are seemingly bound to be tortured. The nuance that there has been a broad spectrum of so-called Communist regimes seems to escape you and Will. You will happily equate Communism with Nazism and Totalitarianism and juxtapose our current so-called democracies as the wonderful alternative. A deplorably intellectually sloppy position, in my view.

Re: Victims of Communism

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 6:43 am
by binocular
chownah wrote:
For many people, unemployment is basically a death sentence
Only for those with psychological problems.....or perhaps in some really really really represive regime. This is not a valid concept for a serious discussion in this thread in my opinion.
Look at all the homeless people who had lost their jobs, whom nobody wants, who end up on the street and die in abject poverty. Some of them are no better off than the people in WWII concentration camps.

Modus.Ponens wrote:Would you say that what happened in Awschwitz to jews, blacks and roma, is comparable to the suffering of unemployment?
For some of the unemployed, of course.

Some people seem to have really romantic ideas about what it means to be unemployed (and unemployable), homeless, and living and dying in homelessness.

Re: Victims of Communism

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 7:07 am
by binocular
Modus.Ponens wrote:So I'll ask it again, perhaps for the 10th time. How would you implement a communist system without mass violence?
Bear in mind that is some European countries that had some variation of socialism or communism, this system was introduced after the end of WWII, as a measure of recovery from the war.

How things worked out seems to depend a lot on how much damage a country suffered during WWII -- what percentage of the population was gone, how much of the industrial and agricultural assets were destroyed, how much of the infrastructure was destroyed.
In some countries, the majority of railroads, bridges, roads and other infrastructure was destroyed and had to be build anew. Fields for growing crops were often neglected during the war so they had to be renewed. Farm animals were decimated during the war, so after the war, they were scarce. War profiteering was rampant. The situation was very similar to that of an all-encompassing natural catastrophe. Different countries were experiencing these consequences of war to different extents.

Governments then acted in a similar way as they still do nowadays in cases of natural catastrophes: impose solidarity and equality among people, impose centralized government and funding to rebuild the industry and infrastructure and prevent war profiteering, impose a variation of martial law.
They still do the same when there is a flood or an earthquake etc. nowadays, except on a much smaller area and for a much shorter time, of course. And this isn't socialism or communism, it's crisis management.

As measures of recovery after the war, variations of socialism or communism seemed to do well. Of course, once the countries recovered, those variations of socialism or communism had become counterproductive.

Re: Victims of Communism

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:09 am
by chownah
binocular wrote:
chownah wrote:
For many people, unemployment is basically a death sentence
Only for those with psychological problems.....or perhaps in some really really really represive regime. This is not a valid concept for a serious discussion in this thread in my opinion.
Look at all the homeless people who had lost their jobs, whom nobody wants, who end up on the street and die in abject poverty. Some of them are no better off than the people in WWII concentration camps.

Modus.Ponens wrote:Would you say that what happened in Awschwitz to jews, blacks and roma, is comparable to the suffering of unemployment?
For some of the unemployed, of course.

Some people seem to have really romantic ideas about what it means to be unemployed (and unemployable), homeless, and living and dying in homelessness.
Key word here "unemployable". What makes a person unemployable?
chownah

Re: Victims of Communism

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:45 am
by binocular
chownah wrote:Key word here "unemployable". What makes a person unemployable?
Policy-makers decide that.

Re: Victims of Communism

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:04 pm
by chownah
binocular wrote:
chownah wrote:Key word here "unemployable". What makes a person unemployable?
Policy-makers decide that.
I think that the correct answer about who makes the decision is that employers make the decision....but if one looks at the individual's characteristics then it is the individuals physical and/or mental characteristics which make a person unemployable.
chownah

Re: Victims of Communism

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:59 pm
by Modus.Ponens
Dan74 wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:Binocular,

I have you in higher regard than that. Would you say that what happened in Awschwitz to jews, blacks and roma, is comparable to the suffering of unemployment?

It's not as if torturers, enslavers and mass murderers, wether nazis or communists, treated their victims psychologically well apart from this explicit physical violence.

Do you really think this is a reasonable comparison?! Are you actually thinking this through?
MP, you started with a broadbrush claim that under Communism you are seemingly bound to be tortured. The nuance that there has been a broad spectrum of so-called Communist regimes seems to escape you and Will. You will happily equate Communism with Nazism and Totalitarianism and juxtapose our current so-called democracies as the wonderful alternative. A deplorably intellectually sloppy position, in my view.
Dan,

You are only bound to torture, enslavement or death if you're deemed an enemy if the state, or "the greater good". If you are in the party and always obey their orders you're probably going to be ok, unless the dictator is paranoid like Stalin was.

Yes there is a spectrum of communist regimes, just as there is a spectrum of fascist ones. I assume we're against them all.

The point I've been trying to make clear from the start is that no communist regime can be installed without mass violence. If you abolish private means of production you are making political opponents. And those political opponents are too many for a peaceful solution to such drastic policies. And that's when mass violence gets into the picture.

Compared with what happens inside these countries, democracies are better.

Re: Victims of Communism

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 1:18 pm
by Dan74
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Dan74 wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:Binocular,

I have you in higher regard than that. Would you say that what happened in Awschwitz to jews, blacks and roma, is comparable to the suffering of unemployment?

It's not as if torturers, enslavers and mass murderers, wether nazis or communists, treated their victims psychologically well apart from this explicit physical violence.

Do you really think this is a reasonable comparison?! Are you actually thinking this through?
MP, you started with a broadbrush claim that under Communism you are seemingly bound to be tortured. The nuance that there has been a broad spectrum of so-called Communist regimes seems to escape you and Will. You will happily equate Communism with Nazism and Totalitarianism and juxtapose our current so-called democracies as the wonderful alternative. A deplorably intellectually sloppy position, in my view.
Dan,

You are only bound to torture, enslavement or death if you're deemed an enemy if the state, or "the greater good". If you are in the party and always obey their orders you're probably going to be ok, unless the dictator is paranoid like Stalin was.

Yes there is a spectrum of communist regimes, just as there is a spectrum of fascist ones. I assume we're against them all.

The point I've been trying to make clear from the start is that no communist regime can be installed without mass violence. If you abolish private means of production you are making political opponents. And those political opponents are too many for a peaceful solution to such drastic policies. And that's when mass violence gets into the picture.

Compared with what happens inside these countries, democracies are better.
You might want to look up people like Alexander Dubcek, Thomas Sankara, as well as Sandinista National Liberation front, to see that not all Communists follow the cliche old script that you and Will appear to believe to be mandatory.

This is not to say they were without faults. But the extreme stance against Communism shown here is not justified, IMO.