Victims of Communism

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
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mikenz66
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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:18 pm

davidbrainerd wrote:
Ben wrote:And neoliberal capitalism doesn't have blood on its hands?
I think not.
Isn't neoliberal capitalism essentially communism?
You mean an oligarchy of unelected, powerful, people take over all of the means of production? I guess so.

This whole thing seems moot to me. There's only a couple of countries that are Communist anymore.

Sure, one can point out many faults in China and other former communist countries but:
1. China (and the others) is no longer communist. Authoritarian neoliberal would be a possible description, with, as far as I can figure from my Chinese friends, less social services than countries in Western Europe or Australasia. So, the people who are currently being persecuted are by no stretch of the imagination "victims of communism".
2. It's infinitely better than it was when it was under Mao's wacky control. I have friends who suffered through the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution. They have not forgotten...

The key things my Chinese friends have worries about are:
1. Lack of social services, therefore potential problems in retirement.
2. Corruption.

The same problems people are concerned about about in places such as the Philippines, Thailand, much of South America...

Fluffy Western ideas about "democracy" are not high on their priorities, even for those who have lived a significant time in the West...

:anjali:
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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by DNS » Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:56 pm

mikenz66 wrote: This whole thing seems moot to me. There's only a couple of countries that are Communist anymore.
China (and the others) is no longer communist.
North Korea, Cuba, Laos, Vietnam, and China, but you're right, none are really communist any more. I think they are just keeping the title of communist so they don't have to hold elections. They are more like corrupt totalitarian oligarchies.
2. It's infinitely better than it was when it was under Mao's wacky control.
Excellent.
Fluffy Western ideas about "democracy" are not high on their priorities, even for those who have lived a significant time in the West...
And our Western democracies are far from perfect too. Although mostly a moot issue as you say, I guess there might be some value in bringing up the past victims to remember the atrocities and so that history doesn't repeat itself. Too often, once so many years or decades pass, some start to romanticize failed policies and theories of the past. Numerous communes, villages and communities tried communism on a small scale in the U.S., Israel and around the world and all pretty much failed, nearly all no longer in existence or for the few still around, very small in numbers with numerous financial and other problems. However, noble the intentions were, it didn't work in practice.
I have friends who suffered through the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution. They have not forgotten...
As the Jews say about slavery and genocide: Never Again!

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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Zom » Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:21 pm

Numerous communes, villages and communities tried communism on a small scale in the U.S., Israel and around the world and all pretty much failed, nearly all no longer in existence or for the few still around, very small in numbers with numerous financial and other problems. However, noble the intentions were, it didn't work in practice.
Yes, indeed so. I was born in the USSR in 1981. And I still remember it, how it was, though I was a kid at this time -) Empty shops, people wearing similar clothes, buying similar furniture and household appliances (of poor quality), living in a similar quarters, everyone had ~same salary. Just like, you know, clones in some science fiction film )) If you saved enough money, you can sign up for buying a car - but you'll have to wait for some years until you can finally get it.

Ye, that's how it was (1965 - black n' white pic of my hometown) -- http://swalker.org/uploads/posts/2014-1 ... -stely.jpg :tongue:

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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:38 pm

In my case I have personally seen the difference between Poland in 1984 and 2000, and various Chinese places I visited in the late 80s to early 90s vs the early 2000s.

I recall a couple of interesting observations from my Polish friends:

1984: We're used to being invaded. Sometimes the Germans, sometimes the Russians. Eventually they go away.
On that trip we were taken to the newly-restored Panorama of the Polish insurrection of 1794...
https://www.inyourpocket.com/wroclaw/ra ... ama_18835v

2000: When the Russians were here we didn't seem to have enough food (there was rationing in 1984 on my previous trip). Now there's plenty of food...

I've only visited Russia once (St Petersburg last year), but judging from that visit I would have seen the same sort of differences I've seen in Poland and China.

:anjali:
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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Zom » Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:53 pm

I've only visited Russia once (St Petersburg last year)
You should have come to our center, how did you miss such a chance! :evil: 8-)
The one & only theravadin dhamma center in the world right in the dome of the Lutheran Church -)

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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:17 pm

Zom wrote:
I've only visited Russia once (St Petersburg last year)
You should have come to our center, how did you miss such a chance! :evil: 8-)
The one & only theravadin dhamma center in the world right in the dome of the Lutheran Church -)
Perhaps another occasion when I have more time. I thought St Petersburg was spectacular,
:anjali:
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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Modus.Ponens » Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:33 am

:tongue:

(I'm sorry for making a joke in this context, but I couldn't resist this allegory from The IT Crowd)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjiUqb2SSw0

EDITED
He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
(Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Sep 10, 2016 2:48 am

Hilarious!

:tongue:
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Will
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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Will » Tue Sep 13, 2016 11:58 pm

Immunity for art stolen by certain regimes - a bill proposed in US Senate. Join the call-in... 14 Sept. 15:30 Eastern time

http://victimsofcommunism.org/events/no ... ll-s-3155/
Distrust everyone in whom the impulse to punish is powerful!
Nietzsche

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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:14 am

Actually it appears to be immunity for almost all regimes under certain circumstances, such as to allow exhibitions of art works in the US, apart from works acquired by systematic confiscation after 1900 (such as, but not limited to, by Nazi Germany and allies):
https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-con ... -bill/3155

Anyway, it's only about issues that comes under US law, which, of course, doesn't apply to most of the world... yet...

:anjali:
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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Will » Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:06 am

Looks like a good book, especially for open-minded liberals:

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/ ... o/?print=1
Distrust everyone in whom the impulse to punish is powerful!
Nietzsche

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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Sprouticus » Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:36 am

Zom wrote:
I've only visited Russia once (St Petersburg last year)
You should have come to our center, how did you miss such a chance! :evil: 8-)
The one & only theravadin dhamma center in the world right in the dome of the Lutheran Church -)
The church is lovely. It would be wonderful to visit St. Petersburg.
Namo buddhaya

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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Will » Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:57 am

Distrust everyone in whom the impulse to punish is powerful!
Nietzsche

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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Will » Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:10 pm

A new book about a family trying to live in Communist East Germany. The value of personal freedom really comes through in it.

https://www.harpercollins.com/978006241 ... ty-autumns
Distrust everyone in whom the impulse to punish is powerful!
Nietzsche

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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Will » Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:03 pm

Another government's socialist/communist adventure flames out:

https://patriotpost.us/opinion/46629/print
Distrust everyone in whom the impulse to punish is powerful!
Nietzsche

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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Will » Sat May 13, 2017 2:49 pm

Heroic Marx and Engels? Nope, unless you think racists & anti-semites are heroic:

http://dailysignal.com//print?post_id=332611
Distrust everyone in whom the impulse to punish is powerful!
Nietzsche

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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Santi253 » Sun May 14, 2017 11:11 am

Will wrote:Just a reminder that not only Eastern Europe was under the boot, but much of Asia was, and still is.

http://victimsofcommunism.org
That appears to be a right-wing extremist website, especially since it appears to lump Bernie Sanders in with communists. Democratic socialism is the system of the Nordic countries, not Stalinist Russia. May you be happy and well. :anjali:
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Santi253 » Mon May 15, 2017 3:44 am

As one can see, the so-called socialist policies of Sweden have led to better economic growth than the United States:
https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/arti ... -in-sweden

It doesn't make any sense to lump in Nordic countries with the Soviet Union.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by The Thinker » Mon May 15, 2017 9:34 am

Capitalism needs communist method to exist, without public money propping up the Banks( The heartbeat of capitalism) then capitalism would be dead as it should be and is!
"Watch your heart, observe. Be the observer, be the knower, not the condition" Ajahn Sumedho volume5 - The Wheel Of Truth

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Re: Victims of Communism

Post by The Thinker » Mon May 15, 2017 9:36 am

Neo- liberals talk a good ideal until they are in financial ruin, then they turn to morality and socialism to bail them out!
"Watch your heart, observe. Be the observer, be the knower, not the condition" Ajahn Sumedho volume5 - The Wheel Of Truth

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