Victims of Communism

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
User avatar
Pseudobabble
Posts: 734
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:11 am
Location: London

Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Pseudobabble » Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:48 pm

Arthur Koestler wrote: Repetitiveness of diction, the catechism technique of asking a rhetorical question and repeating the full question in the answer; the use of stereotyped adjectives and the dismissal of an attitude or fact by the simple expedient of putting words in inverted commas and giving them an ironic inflection (the “revolutionary” past of Trotsky, the “humanistic” bleatings of the “liberal” press, etc.); all these were essential parts of a style, of which Josef Djugashwili is the uncontested master, and which through its very tedium produced a dull, hypnotic effect. Two hours of this dialectical tom-tom and you didn’t know whether you were a boy or a girl, and were ready to believe either as soon as the rejected alternative appeared in inverted commas.
Interesting, you can see this exact phenomenon (repetitiveness of diction, stereotyped language) in current leftward social activism: 'oppressive structures', 'patriarchal oppression', intersectional discourse'.



Amusingly, the effect it is having on people today was already noted by Koestler:
Two hours of this dialectical tom-tom and you didn’t know whether you were a boy or a girl, and were ready to believe either as soon as the rejected alternative appeared in inverted commas.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

User avatar
Will
Posts: 1031
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:26 pm
Location: So Cal

Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Will » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:06 pm

A dark centennial, proclaimed by President Trump:

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-of ... -communism
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- AN 10.1

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3132
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Victims of Communism

Post by DooDoot » Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:17 am

Will wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:06 pm
A dark centennial, proclaimed by President Trump:

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-of ... -communism
Influential Americans reportedly supported revolution in Russia, similar to American intervention to continues today on so-called grounds of "liberation". Often, people seem to think groups like the Bolsheviks & ISIS can overthrow governments but not receive financing & weapons from wealthy foreign supporters.
When you grow up, knife a Romanoff wherever you find him, loyalty to these cobras is treason to the nation; be a patriot, not a prig - set the people free... Mark Twain http://www.twainquotes.com/Revolution/revolution.html
Image
Image

https://www.amazon.com/Wall-Street-Russ ... 1634241231
Never ordained... not an anonymous-online-bhikkhu or ex-bhikkhu...

User avatar
Will
Posts: 1031
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:26 pm
Location: So Cal

Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Will » Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:41 pm

US Congress forms Caucus for Victims:

http://victimsofcommunism.org/members-o ... sm-caucus/
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- AN 10.1

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3132
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Victims of Communism

Post by DooDoot » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:32 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:17 am
https://www.amazon.com/Wall-Street-Russ ... 1634241231
I just completed reading this. Until shut down by Stalin in 1925, from the beginning of the 'revolution' in 1917, prominent US businessmen, with their political contacts, flocked to Russia doing or trying to do deals. Standard neo-colonial imperialism. This is a very well written & documented book. I highly recommend it (on Kindle). :reading: :spy:
Never ordained... not an anonymous-online-bhikkhu or ex-bhikkhu...

User avatar
Will
Posts: 1031
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:26 pm
Location: So Cal

Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Will » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:10 pm

Several recent panel discussions on varied aspects of Communism:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... ZNuNMaNWP0
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- AN 10.1

User avatar
Will
Posts: 1031
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:26 pm
Location: So Cal

Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Will » Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:39 pm

The murder by the Cuban state of one who worked for the Liberation of the Cuban people; told by his daughter:

Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- AN 10.1

Upeksha
Posts: 119
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:23 am

Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Upeksha » Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:53 am

There's obviously a deep relation between communism and Theravada Buddhism via what happened in SE Asia in the 20th century. I don't think anyone here is interested in defending the Khmer Rouge, but I also don't think that the theoretical question of Buddhism and communism/capitalism is settled.

It is interesting to note that in Thailand (during the period of communist upheaval in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia etc) there were Buddhist movements both ways. i.e. some influential monks argued that the dhamma was aligned with communism, others that they were very contrary. Donald Swearer did some good research on this, but I forgot the name of his book.

The big crux of the theoretical debate comes down to whether or not individual property rights are justified by the Dhamma - because that is at the very heart of liberal-capitalism, and also at the very heart of what Marx and the communists are revolting against.

I think Buddhism is a bit contradictory on that question. Clearly, there is a normative ideal to renounce individual possession of material things. What is a begging bowl but the symbol of giving up owning property? But in the same breath, there is an obvious - though unstated or untheorised - conception of individual property rights in the precepts not to steal. So I can see why there were confusions when the political climate was rich with these sorts of conflicts.

User avatar
Will
Posts: 1031
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:26 pm
Location: So Cal

Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Will » Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:58 am

Upeksha: I also don't think that the theoretical question of Buddhism and communism/capitalism is settled.
When are 'theoretical questions' ever settled?

That is why this thread is not about theories, but the Victims of the Red Menace.
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- AN 10.1

Upeksha
Posts: 119
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:23 am

Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Upeksha » Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:12 am

Will wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:58 am
Upeksha: I also don't think that the theoretical question of Buddhism and communism/capitalism is settled.
When are 'theoretical questions' ever settled?

That is why this thread is not about theories, but the Victims of the Red Menace.
Well, I think they clearly have been settled in the real world of political economy since about 1989.

As well, the thread clearly presupposes a great deal about the relationship between Buddhism and communism/capitalism, and many posters have been have been keen to explore this. Are you asking us not to explore this, or simply not explore positions which you disagree with?

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3132
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Victims of Communism

Post by DooDoot » Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:33 am

Upeksha wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:53 am
There's obviously a deep relation between communism and Theravada Buddhism via what happened in SE Asia in the 20th century.
King Bhumibol's Theravada Buddhist are said to have massacred suspected Communists in Thailand; such as Thammasat University massacre & the Red Drum killings.
Upeksha wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:53 am
I don't think anyone here is interested in defending the Khmer Rouge, but I also don't think that the theoretical question of Buddhism and communism/capitalism is settled.
Didn't the Khmer Rouge learn their Communism in Paris? Didn't Marx live in London after being kicked out of Germany? What does European Jewish Communism have to do with Theravada Buddhism?
Upeksha wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:53 am
It is interesting to note that in Thailand (during the period of communist upheaval in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia etc) there were Buddhist movements both ways. i.e. some influential monks argued that the dhamma was aligned with communism, others that they were very contrary. Donald Swearer did some good research on this, but I forgot the name of his book.
Which monks? Buddhadasa & Ajahn Jumnien? Buddhadasa never preached Communism although some of his followers might have been communists & were certainly caught up in the Thammasat Uni massacre. Regardless, what Buddhadasa theorised about 'Dhammic Socialism' was not communism. Communism is Marxism. Communism is the control of capital by the State. I doubt Buddhadasa ever preached that.
Upeksha wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:53 am
The big crux of the theoretical debate comes down to whether or not individual property rights are justified by the Dhamma - because that is at the very heart of liberal-capitalism, and also at the very heart of what Marx and the communists are revolting against.
Theravada Buddhism supports the view of a hierarchical society; including private ownership of property. It is not classless Judaism. Buddhism preaches the fruits of individual kamma (rather than a welfare State). If Buddhadasa strayed from what is in the Pali suttas, it cannot be classed as Buddhism but merely his personal ideas & theories.
Upeksha wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:53 am
I think Buddhism is a bit contradictory on that question. Clearly, there is a normative ideal to renounce individual possession of material things.
Only in respect to monasticism. The Pali suttas contain many suttas for laypeople, which are about owing property & using personal initiative & enterprise; such as the Anana Sutta.



Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
Never ordained... not an anonymous-online-bhikkhu or ex-bhikkhu...

Upeksha
Posts: 119
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:23 am

Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Upeksha » Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:59 am

The relationship between communism and Theravada Buddhism is simply that: it has already happened, very brazenly, in the 20th century.

And its relationship to capitalism is simply that: it is happening, right now in the 21st century.

And the relevant point with respect to both is that: both systems are completely foreign and alien to ancient India; both are products of European modernity, and both spread to become global in scope. One has basically failed, and one is in full flight.

And my point is simply that: it's actually not at all clear what relationship Buddhist Dhamma has to modern political economy. And that is why it is actually quite productive to discuss these things, as Buddhists.

But the problem is: people tend to be more attached to their favoured political economy than just about anything else. If they could, the victims of communism in the 20th century would attest to this fact.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3132
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Victims of Communism

Post by DooDoot » Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:16 am

Upeksha wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:59 am
The relationship between communism and Theravada Buddhism is simply that: it has already happened, very brazenly, in the 20th century.
Could you kindly substantiate these assertions with some concrete examples & evidence. Thanks. Its like saying Communism was Russian.
Upeksha wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:59 am
And its relationship to capitalism is simply that: it is happening, right now in the 21st century.
Theravada Buddhism is not a political system, such as Islam.
Upeksha wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:59 am
And the relevant point with respect to both is that: both systems are completely foreign and alien to ancient India; both are products of European modernity, and both spread to become global in scope. One has basically failed, and one is in full flight.
Its still probably not related to Theravada Buddhism. India probably followed whatever systems the Indian monarchs implemented.
Upeksha wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:59 am
And my point is simply that: it's actually not at all clear what relationship Buddhist Dhamma has to modern political economy. And that is why it is actually quite productive to discuss these things, as Buddhists.
Buddhist Dhamma is not related to modern political economy. Buddhist Dhamma is just a path for individuals.
Upeksha wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:59 am
But the problem is: people tend to be more attached to their favoured political economy than just about anything else. If they could, the victims of communism in the 20th century would attest to this fact.
The 20th century was extremely complex (unless you follow the high school & Hollywood version). Obviously there were sufficient social factors & support that resulted in the political rule of Communists in Russia & later in China. Unless a victim of pure imperialism (such as indigenous peoples of the Americas & Australia), "victimhood" generally does not occur in isolation.
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Never ordained... not an anonymous-online-bhikkhu or ex-bhikkhu...

User avatar
Will
Posts: 1031
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:26 pm
Location: So Cal

Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Will » Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:22 am

Upeksha wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:12 am

As well, the thread clearly presupposes a great deal about the relationship between Buddhism and communism/capitalism, and many posters have been have been keen to explore this. Are you asking us not to explore this, or simply not explore positions which you disagree with?
If after reading the 12 pages of posts you really think you have some new or modified 'theory' to 'explore' - type away.

I prefer to focus on the poisonous fruits of totalitarian ideals.
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- AN 10.1

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3132
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Victims of Communism

Post by DooDoot » Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:24 am

Will wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:22 am
I prefer to focus on the poisonous fruits of totalitarian ideals.
The Buddha focused largely on "causes" rather than "fruits".
In response, the Elder Assaji uttered this stanza:

"Of all those things that from a cause arise,
Tathagata the cause thereof has told;
And how they cease to be, that too he tells,
This is the doctrine of the Great Recluse."
Never ordained... not an anonymous-online-bhikkhu or ex-bhikkhu...

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 39 guests