North Carolina's "bathroom law."

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
freedom
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:44 am

Re: North Carolina's "bathroom law."

Post by freedom » Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:42 am

Because I see a gay as a female who is trapped in a male body, and a lesbian as a male who is trapped in a female body; therefore, I do not have any problem with their appearances or actions. I instead feel more compassion for their unfortunate conditions. I can see their struggles and confusion. I really feel sorry for them. I also have no problem with transgenders. To me, they just want to be what they think they really are. I hope they may find some happiness and have peaceful lives.
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1805
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: North Carolina's "bathroom law."

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:43 am

Sujith Manoharan wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote: That implies you know what is better for them.
Maybe I should have worded it differently, but it wasn't my intention to indicate that I know what's good for other people.
We cannot practice Buddhadharma for trans people. Let trans people practice Buddhadharma themselves in engagement with the Triple-Gem. There is no need for treating them poorly because they are different.
Sure.
Well then we are either in agreement or misunderstanding. Either way, I apologize as well, because I am not a perfect communicator, and probably also made some of my points less-than-maximally-skillfully.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

Exactly
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 9:40 am

Re: North Carolina's "bathroom law."

Post by Exactly » Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:08 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Sujith Manoharan wrote: From the perspective of the Dhamma, what other answer can be given ? When the Dhamma explains the birth of an individual to be the result of his or her own past actions, how can an allowance be made for this case alone ?
I take it that you have the opinion that being trans or gay is an unfortunate thing? If so, is that because you believe that it is intrinsically bad to be gay or trans, or is because gay or trans people may suffer from hate or discrimination?

:anjali:
Mike
Poor people may suffer from hate and discrimination too. But even if they don't suffer, people still treat them differently than how a millionaire gets treated when interacting with other people. This doesn't mean people are hateful, it's just how things always were and always will be. And it's the same with trans people. They may not encounter hate or discrimination but still, compared to a non-trans person, they are perceived similar to how a poor man vs a rich man or a stupid person vs a smart person is perceived.

So in my opinion, there is a bit of kamma involved. I wouldn't call been trans or been poor or been stupid, etc. a fortunate situation. A fortunate situation is to be sexually "normal", rich, smart and beautiful.


No matter how much some will try to make other people percieve poor people as milionaires or stupid people as smart people, that is not going to happen. The best we can do is reduce discrimination against poor or stupid people. But a poor person will never be perceived by others in the way Bill Gates is going to be perceived. People are gona look different at you, speak different with you, treat you different if you are a millionaire than if you're a poor person. Same if you are beautiful vs ugly.

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16460
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: North Carolina's "bathroom law."

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Nov 07, 2016 5:14 am

Sujith Manoharan wrote:
mikenz66 wrote: I take it that you have the opinion that being trans or gay is an unfortunate thing? If so, is that because you believe that it is intrinsically bad to be gay or trans, or is because gay or trans people may suffer from hate or discrimination?

:anjali:
Mike
No, I don't have the opinion that it's intrinsically bad. I just don't see why the Dhamma and its teaching of Kamma should be exempted in this case.
If there is no problem with being gay or trans then what is the relevance of kamma in this discussion?

In any case, the Buddha stated that only a Buddha can see the details of connections between kamma and vipaka, so speculating about past kamma seems rather futile. Given that, it might be best to consider the teachings on kamma as primarily an encouragement to be careful about our present kamma.

:anjali:
Mike

Sujith Manoharan
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2016 1:57 am

Re: North Carolina's "bathroom law."

Post by Sujith Manoharan » Mon Nov 07, 2016 5:48 am

mikenz66 wrote: If there is no problem with being gay or trans then what is the relevance of kamma in this discussion?
All desire that leads to future becoming are akusala in nature and I would imagine that the desire to be a different gender will also fall under the same category. But, this thread seems to imply that this desire should be considered as natural instead. Since the cessation of kamma can be brought about only by the eradication of craving, I don't see how this can be right.

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16460
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: North Carolina's "bathroom law."

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Nov 07, 2016 6:03 am

Sujith Manoharan wrote: All desire that leads to future becoming are akusala in nature and I would imagine that the desire to be a different gender will also fall under the same category. ...
Thank you for the clarification. As I understand it, all non-awakened people have desires that lead to future becoming, whether tye are gay, trans, or straight, and of course the eradication of that craving is necessary for awakening.

:anjali:
Mike.

User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 3368
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: North Carolina's "bathroom law."

Post by Mr Man » Mon Nov 07, 2016 7:45 am

ihrjordan wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
ihrjordan wrote:The buddha said


Please do not.
Don't quote the Buddha?
Don't use the Buddha to try and justify your own prejudices.
ihrjordan wrote: Is this discrimination? ;)
No.

Exactly
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 9:40 am

Re: North Carolina's "bathroom law."

Post by Exactly » Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:34 am

I don't think there is any person who would make a wish " may I be transgender in my future life" on their death bed, not even transgenders themselves. A male to female transgender may make a wish "may I be a female in my future life" not "may I be transgender again in my future life".

I don't understand why considering that someone suffers from bad kamma in this current life is understood to mean discrimination. We don't have a problem saying that poor people, ugly people, ill people etc. suffer from bad kamma in this current life. And I doubt everybody posting here is a smart, beautiful and healthy millionaire. I for example am not.

Considering that someone suffers from bad kamma in this current life generally makes us more compassionate not more hateful. Don't you have compassion for someone who is poor or stupid or ugly ? The same way we think "I too was poor /stupid/ ill/ ugly / in the past", the same way we should think "I too was transgender some time in the past". On the contrary, it is more difficult to have compassion for a smart and beautiful millionaire than for a poor person.

Buddha had no problem claiming that some enjoy good kamma and some suffer from bad kamma in this life. Does this mean Buddha was a hateful and bigoted person ?
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nymo.html

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1805
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: North Carolina's "bathroom law."

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:07 pm

Exactly wrote:I don't think there is any person who would make a wish " may I be transgender in my future life" on their death bed, not even transgenders themselves. A male to female transgender may make a wish "may I be a female in my future life" not "may I be transgender again in my future life".

I don't understand why considering that someone suffers from bad kamma in this current life is understood to mean discrimination. We don't have a problem saying that poor people, ugly people, ill people etc. suffer from bad kamma in this current life. And I doubt everybody posting here is a smart, beautiful and healthy millionaire. I for example am not.

Considering that someone suffers from bad kamma in this current life generally makes us more compassionate not more hateful. Don't you have compassion for someone who is poor or stupid or ugly ? The same way we think "I too was poor /stupid/ ill/ ugly / in the past", the same way we should think "I too was transgender some time in the past". On the contrary, it is more difficult to have compassion for a smart and beautiful millionaire than for a poor person.

Buddha had no problem claiming that some enjoy good kamma and some suffer from bad kamma in this life. Does this mean Buddha was a hateful and bigoted person ?
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nymo.html
I think what is being debated is whether or not it is skillful or appropriate to treat people differently on account of whatever kamma they are perceived to have been born under. Human births are also highly auspicious and rare. Whether or not a given human is trans, they were doing something to have warranted the opportunity before them. Why do we need to make these divisions of "I'm not trans and therefore am justified in making statements about and/or to trans people concerning how I think Buddhadharma practice should eclipse medical on this one specific issue" like some posters have indicated they feel.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

Exactly
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 9:40 am

Re: North Carolina's "bathroom law."

Post by Exactly » Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:48 pm

I think what is being debated is whether or not it is skillful or appropriate to treat people differently on account of whatever kamma they are perceived to have been born under.
I haven't seen anybody claiming such a thing in this topic. The discussion was about weather it's a result of bad kamma to be reborn as a trans. Last time I checked it was better to be non-trans than to be trans, better to be rich than to be poor, better to be beautiful than to be ugly etc.

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1805
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: North Carolina's "bathroom law."

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:54 pm

Exactly wrote:
I think what is being debated is whether or not it is skillful or appropriate to treat people differently on account of whatever kamma they are perceived to have been born under.
I haven't seen anybody claiming such a thing in this topic. The discussion was about weather it's a result of bad kamma to be reborn as a trans. Last time I checked it was better to be non-trans than to be trans, better to be rich than to be poor, better to be beautiful than to be ugly etc.
Perhaps that was the original discussion, and I sidetracked it pursuing this avenue in reaction to the posters I was responding to then. But it has been argued that trans people should not be treated well on this thread, for certain, and the justification given was their bad kamma. That may be unrelated to the OP.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 3368
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: North Carolina's "bathroom law."

Post by Mr Man » Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:06 pm

Exactly wrote: The discussion was about weather it's a result of bad kamma to be reborn as a trans.
That is not what the discussion on this thread was about (look back to page 1 and the thread's title). If you want to make the case that being trans is the result of "bad kamma" perhaps you should start a new thread.

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1805
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: North Carolina's "bathroom law."

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:33 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Exactly wrote: The discussion was about weather it's a result of bad kamma to be reborn as a trans.
That is not what the discussion on this thread was about (look back to page 1 and the thread's title). If you want to make the case that being trans is the result of bad kamma perhaps you should start a new thread.
All births are the result of bad kamma. I don't see the use in constructing hierarchies of "how-bad-your-kamma-was" and making value judgements from that to determine anything. The practice is in the here-and-now. Getting too caught up in previous births, previous becomings, previous kamma, does not strike me as conducive to practice and progress in the here-and-now.
“When, bhikkhus, a noble disciple has clearly seen with correct wisdom as it really is this dependent origination and these dependently arisen phenomena, it is impossible that he will run back into the past, thinking: ‘Did I exist in the past? Did I not exist in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what did I become in the past?’ Or that he will run forward into the future, thinking: ‘Will I exist in the future? Will I not exist in the future? What will I be in the future? How will I be in the future? Having been what, what will I become in the future?’ Or that he will now be inwardly confused about the present thus: ‘Do I exist? Do I not exist? What am I? How am I? This being—where has it come from, and where will it go?’

“For what reason is this impossible? Because, bhikkhus, the noble disciple has clearly seen with correct wisdom as it really is this dependent origination and these dependently arisen phenomena.”
(SN 12.20)

I would add that these relinquished questions, "Did I exist in the past?", "Did I not exist in the past?", "What was I in the past?", "How was I in the past?", "What did I become in the past?", can also be understood to apply to other people, and speculations about other peoples' births, past kamma, etc. Just as these speculations are put to rest through the correct knowledge of dependently arisen phenomena and dependently arisen becomings, I would venture to extrapolate that so too is the speculations upon other peoples' past-kamma and past-births abandoned, in accordance with the sutta quote.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

Exactly
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 9:40 am

Re: North Carolina's "bathroom law."

Post by Exactly » Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:45 pm

All births are the result of bad kamma. I don't see the use in constructing hierarchies of "how-bad-your-kamma-was" and making value judgements from that to determine anything. The practice is in the here-and-now. Getting too caught up in previous births, previous becomings, previous kamma, does not strike me as conducive to practice and progress in the here-and-now.
I don't see the use in denying it is better to be beautiful than to be ugly, better to be rich than to be poor etc. Not even the communist managed to equalize everybody past kamma.

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1805
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: North Carolina's "bathroom law."

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:51 pm

Exactly wrote:
All births are the result of bad kamma. I don't see the use in constructing hierarchies of "how-bad-your-kamma-was" and making value judgements from that to determine anything. The practice is in the here-and-now. Getting too caught up in previous births, previous becomings, previous kamma, does not strike me as conducive to practice and progress in the here-and-now.
I don't see the use in denying it is better to be beautiful than to be ugly, better to be rich than to be poor etc. Not even the communist managed to equalize everybody past kamma.
Is it really "better" to be beautiful than ugly? How does your beauty or lack thereof impact your ability to practice and impact your discernment? Is it "better" to be a powerful and magnificent celestial deva than a mere human with a short lifespan? It is "better" to live in a heaven of sense-pleasure than "here"? Those who are not aware of their suffering have greater hurdles to realizing Buddhadharma. A beautiful person can be aware of their suffering just as much as an ugly person. The ugly person, I would hazard to guess, has a certain amount of suffering more evident to themselves. That is the first step to realizing the truth of suffering. Perhaps it is "better" to be ugly. Perhaps not.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 22 guests