First-past-the-post Voting System

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
chownah
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Re: First-past-the-post Voting System

Post by chownah » Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:50 am

Is it necessary that the minority should not even be heard?
Freedom of the media assures that all groups can be heard. Having the ideas of minorities taught in schools so that people can learn what they are and whether they seem to be helpful would be a good thing. A democracy requires an educated electorate.
chownah

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Mr Man
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Re: First-past-the-post Voting System

Post by Mr Man » Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:53 am

chownah wrote: I think in a democracy it is more important to have intelligent voters than the exact form of the gov't
chownah wrote: A democracy requires an educated electorate.
Hi chownah

This is similar to a view which was somtimes forward by coup supporters in Thailand. What degree of education do you think should be required?

Any thoughts on how democracy has functioned in India?

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robertk
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Re: First-past-the-post Voting System

Post by robertk » Tue Feb 09, 2016 8:18 am

Mr Man wrote:
chownah wrote: I think in a democracy it is more important to have intelligent voters than the exact form of the gov't
chownah wrote: A democracy requires an educated electorate.
Hi chownah

This is similar to a view which was somtimes forward by coup supporters in Thailand. What degree of education do you think should be required?

Any thoughts on how democracy has functioned in India?
If they can't at least converse on Cicero and Descartes, in the original Latin of course, then how could they have viable political opinions?

chownah
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Re: First-past-the-post Voting System

Post by chownah » Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:36 am

Mr Man wrote:
chownah wrote: I think in a democracy it is more important to have intelligent voters than the exact form of the gov't
chownah wrote: A democracy requires an educated electorate.
Hi chownah

This is similar to a view which was somtimes forward by coup supporters in Thailand. What degree of education do you think should be required?

Any thoughts on how democracy has functioned in India?
I did not mean to imply that there is some sort of degree which should be required. Seems you are thinking of being educated as meaning some sort of attendance at some school. I am thinking of being educated in the sense of not being ignorant. A democracy is supposed to let the people vote to decide either what will happen or who will be elected to make these decisions. The more knowledge people have the more likely that a good decision will be reached. With an illiterate and uninformed population the best a vote will be determined by who can either entice or ensite the most people....sometimes called "manipulating the masses".

In terms of an educated electorate it should not be the gov't's position to determine some standard of education to allow someone to vote but rather it should be one of the gov't's highest priorities to establish programs which educate all citizens in a way to enable them to make good decisions.

As to the democracy in India, I do not have the knowledge of politics and government in India to be able to express an informed opinion but my uninformed view is that while India has regular elections which may lead some to think that it is a good democracy it also has a strongly held cast system which is pretty much incompatible with democracy.

By the way, I would say one of the problems with the democracy in the USA is that the population is not well educated.

chownah

chownah
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Re: First-past-the-post Voting System

Post by chownah » Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:39 am

robertk wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
chownah wrote: I think in a democracy it is more important to have intelligent voters than the exact form of the gov't
chownah wrote: A democracy requires an educated electorate.
Hi chownah

This is similar to a view which was somtimes forward by coup supporters in Thailand. What degree of education do you think should be required?

Any thoughts on how democracy has functioned in India?
If they can't at least converse on Cicero and Descartes, in the original Latin of course, then how could they have viable political opinions?
......and if they don't know what any of the candidates think about anything and they just go vote for whoever the village headman says to vote for I am sure that they don't need viable political opinions. Of course if one of the candidates hates the same minority that I hate then that in itself is as much of a viable political opinion as is needed.
chownah

chownah
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Re: First-past-the-post Voting System

Post by chownah » Tue Feb 09, 2016 10:40 am

Without people supporting a government will not continue.
Oh yes it will, it can continue quite a long time before been brought down.
Absolutely wrong. If no people support a government then who will hold its guns? If there are no people who support a gov't then it will vanish instantly. A government can only exist if there are people who support it. How could there be a gov't with no one supporting it?....that's impossible. Governments exist because people support them.
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Re: First-past-the-post Voting System

Post by dxm_dxm » Tue Feb 09, 2016 11:53 am

Absolutely wrong. If no people support a government then who will hold its guns?
The small, well payed and privileged army + secret service + the unwillingless of the people to form an armed insurgency. Open up your tv more often. Maybe you can tell me who supported the banana republics governments of panama and guatemala :smile:
The best way to avoid an armed insurgence is to educate the population and to free up channels of communications between and among individuals.
The best way to avoid an armed insurgency is not putting too much power in a single person. It is well known that presidential systems tend to create military coups because that is the only way you can change the supreme leader. Even USA had 4 assassinated presidents and 20 assassination attempts. That is why US is not promoting the presidential system but the european one around the globe.The best way to avoid an armed insurgency is having a democracy.
but rather it should be one of the gov't's highest priorities to establish programs which educate all citizens in a way to enable them to make good decisions.
Why would a government with 1 party system correctly educate people about the other systems of government ? Why would a 2 party presidential system with electoral votes and, as I said, the insanity of 1 round elections want to educate people above kindergartner level ? Look at the US propaganda, they tell people that a democracy only means having the power to vote. Look at the lovely scenes with little flags and super-excited people in the movies. :smile: Anybody educated about the democratic principles of representation, power share etc. would never support such a system. Because we europeans have nothing to hide - we have 1 hour a week lesson about democracy in 7 and 8th grade where we learn about the democratic principles. So that's why we have such a bad idea about US, UK who do not respect these principles at all. How in the world can a party with 8% votes get 1% representation ??????? We look at that the same way you guys look at north korea.

Romanian voters are not too educated and 45% of our population lives in countryside. The thing is that if you give power to the people, the people - however stupid - will never let it go. Also the people, however uneducated, know that a ballance has to be kept and no party should become too big. They vote other parties if they see that happening.

Still nobody found a resonable explanation to why you have to force people to vote in different compartments of the train with a winner-take-it-all system and 1round voting brain fart ? :rolleye:

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Re: First-past-the-post Voting System

Post by dxm_dxm » Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:16 pm

I think in a democracy it is more important to have intelligent voters than the exact form of the gov't
Nas k torzhestvu kommunizma vediooooot! :D

chownah
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Re: First-past-the-post Voting System

Post by chownah » Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:50 pm

The best way to avoid an armed insurgency is having a democracy.

Yes, and the best way to have a strong democracy is to educate the population and to free up channels of communications between and among individuals.....just as I said in the quote to which you are replying.
chownah

chownah
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Re: First-past-the-post Voting System

Post by chownah » Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:53 pm

Look at the US propaganda, they tell people that a democracy only means having the power to vote.
Absolutely wrong. It is widely known in the US that having the power to vote alone does not mean there is a democracy. You seem to have swallowed some anti american propoganda without checking out what the reality is.
Look at the lovely scenes with little flags and super-excited people in the movies.

OK. Now I see. You get your ideas about america from watching movies.
Anybody educated about the democratic principles of representation, power share etc. would never support such a system.
Absolutely wrong...as can easily be shown by simply pointing out that there are lots of educated people who understand full well the principles you mention and who support the american government.
We look at that the same way you guys look at north korea.
I guess this shows how really deluded you are.
Also the people, however uneducated, know that a ballance has to be kept and no party should become too big. They vote other parties if they see that happening.

Yet more deluded thinking. Where did you get these ideas? Seems that you are just arguing for the sake of arguement because what you are saying now makes no sense at all.

chownah

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Re: First-past-the-post Voting System

Post by dxm_dxm » Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:11 pm

Absolutely wrong. It is widely known in the US that having the power to vote alone does not mean there is a democracy.
Then why are they not doing anything to bring proportional representation in the country or at least fix the 1round vote insanity ?
Absolutely wrong...as can easily be shown by simply pointing out that there are lots of educated people who understand full well the principles you mention and who support the american government.
And still, nobody answered my question about the train I posted 5 times :juggling:
I guess this shows how really deluded you are.
Or the guys living in such systems :smile:
because what you are saying now makes no sense at all.
I was reffering to the fact that we changed our system back to party list after having just about 5% of the total votes wasted. You guys have 70% and are doing nothing. You can take no step to diminish the vote power of romanians because the people will crucify you while they can. People don't have to be philosophers to understand the principle of representation and when power is taken away from them.

chownah
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Re: First-past-the-post Voting System

Post by chownah » Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:14 pm

thanks for all your replies. At first I wasn't sure if I understood what you were saying but now I think I do.
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Re: First-past-the-post Voting System

Post by dxm_dxm » Tue Feb 09, 2016 3:18 pm

Yup, that's what I was trying to say. If 70% votes are wasted 70% people have no power. I would have been one of those people at every election that took place. The vote power is greatly diluted by the electoral vote + 1round voting absurdity. Every vote matters over here. In fact, it matters so much that the parties offer a lot of political bribes when election comes. Usually they are buckets with food products worth 15-30$ offered to countryside people but also in the cities. Somebody once knocked at my door (in the city) and offered me a sandwich but I refused because it was from the party I was keeping sides with and did not want to waste the sandwich. My vote worth at least a sandwich, it's not a wasted vote or even a detrimental vote(thanks to 1round voting brain fart) The competition on the political scene is infinitely greater because every 1% matters so that's why protests are so effective in such systems. We never have protests because things are fixed way beore that point but when we do, it can take as little as 13 000 from 22mil and a couple of days of protests to change a government as in the 2012 case.

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Re: First-past-the-post Voting System

Post by dxm_dxm » Tue Feb 09, 2016 8:16 pm

The chief prosecutor of Romania just got on trial for corruption and resigned today. There are voices that say that our anti-corruption division is the nr1 in the world at this moment and we are given an example to all developing countries. The neighbouring moldovans look at as like at gods and try to copy us (unfortunately with 0% success). Having their life and world threatened, there were innumerable attempts from the politicians, especially from the corrupt socialist (ex communist) party to castrate the anti-corruption division but were unable to because of popular support, EU and US intervention and because the good design of the system. They even tried a kind of a coup in 2012 on the president but our institutions simply resisted thanks to their good design. It was a crucial moment in the history o Romania. All the time, people violently opposed the castrations of the anti-corruption division, no matter what party they were supporting. If the people had no power like in UK/US, defending or creating this in the first place would not have been possible. We are an example of what EU idea of policy can create.
In December 2013, on a day dubbed Black Tuesday,the parliament passed a draft law that would have granted immunity to elected officials. The international community reacted strongly, as did many Romanians who took to the streets in protest, and the measures were later struck down.

No longer untouchable
Last November, just days after an anticorruption candidate won Romania’s latest presidential election, lawmakers were once again called to vote on a controversial amnesty bill. This one would have opened the way to releasing any inmate serving up to six years in prison for non-violent crimes – which would have included most of those serving time for corruption.

This time the vote was almost unanimously against the bill.
I remember how they kept saying on tv "do not worry, violent offenders won't get out so there is nothing to fear" lol

POWER TO THE PEOPLE :group:

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Re: First-past-the-post Voting System

Post by dxm_dxm » Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:57 pm

I have noticed that every time I brag about something I tend to lose is very fast lol

The corrupt socialist party also responsible for what is quoted in my previsious post and the semi-coup they tried in 2012 managed to introduce the 1 round insanity overe here. In 2014 presidential elections they were on the wave. Their corrupt canditate got 40% in first round (vs30%)and all the small parties announced their support for second tour. In the last week of the campaign, when people were not looking, he introduced 1 round elections for mayers. I completelly forgot about this because every party said it is strongly against this and will easily stop it. Turns out the other big party just pretended to try and stop this but did nothing because it's helping them too. Now it is pretty sure we will have 1 round elections for mayers. I hope this insanity won't last more than one local election.

A study was just made that says mayers in office have 80% chance to be re-elected thanks to this insanity. I still hope somebody will stop this.

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