First-past-the-post Voting System

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First-past-the-post Voting System

Post by No_Mind » Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:33 pm

dxm_dxm wrote: electoral instead of normal popular vote, 1 round voting (LOL....) etc. How in the world can somebody argue for 1 round voting system ? This is simply madness.
Without wading into an argument about relative supremacy or deficiency of Westminster system vis-a-vis Presidential system (and any permutation and combination of the two systems that exists) can you tell me why does there have to be runoff vote?

Among major countries it is in vogue only in France (to the best of my knowledge). Which other major country (either by population or substantial GDP) uses the runoff system?
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Re: First-past-the-post Voting System

Post by dxm_dxm » Sun Feb 07, 2016 4:01 pm

Without wading into an argument about relative supremacy or deficiency of Westminster system vis-a-vis Presidential system (and any permutation and combination of the two systems that exists) can you tell me why does there have to be runoff vote?
I think a bunch of kindergadner kids after voting for who to be the class leader, would then vote between the 2 most popular ones. It's too obvious to need explaining but anyway, read the criticism here to see why :smile: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-pas ... Criticisms" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; This is a brutal murder of the democratic principle of representation. How can a party (liberal-democrates) voted by 8% get 1% of the seats ? What in the world is this madness ? If the party is voted by 8% it has 8% representation anywhere in the rational part of the world.
Among major countries it is in vogue only in France (to the best of my knowledge). Which other major country (either by population or substantial GDP) uses the runoff system?
Why don't you click on the links I posted if you bothered to read my post? Nobody in the world uses 1 round except some countries from the bad part of Africa who probably have dictatorships anyway. Take a look at this map: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... System.png" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's a no-brainer :rolleye:
Last edited by dxm_dxm on Sun Feb 07, 2016 4:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: First-past-the-post Voting System

Post by No_Mind » Sun Feb 07, 2016 4:11 pm

dxm_dxm wrote:
Without wading into an argument about relative supremacy or deficiency of Westminster system vis-a-vis Presidential system (and any permutation and combination of the two systems that exists) can you tell me why does there have to be runoff vote?
I think a bunch of kindergadner kids after voting for who to be the class leader, would then vote between the 2 most popular ones. It's too obvious to need explaining but anyway, read the criticism here to see why :smile: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-pas ... Criticisms" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Among major countries it is in vogue only in France (to the best of my knowledge). Which other major country (either by population or substantial GDP) uses the runoff system?
Why don't you click on the links I posted if you bothered to read my post. Nobody in the world uses 1 round except some countries from the bad part of Africa who probably have dictatorships anyway. Look at this map: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... System.png" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's a no-brainer :rolleye:
I know the moderator is keeping a close eye but I am sorry your wiki article about FPTP system is disputed by another wiki article about runoff voting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-round_system
A two-round system is used also to elect the presidents of Afghanistan, Argentina, Austria, Brazil, Bulgaria, Burkina Faso, Cape Verde, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Croatia, Czech Republic, Cyprus, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Egypt, El Salvador, Finland, Ghana, Guatemala, Haiti, India, Indonesia, Liberia, Peru, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Senegal, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Timor-Leste, Turkey, Ukraine, Uruguay, Zimbabwe
Just like to mention in India it is used to elect the President who is ceremonial/non-executive and India can safely be deleted from the list above. None of the other countries in that list are big enough in any way.

No more replies from me on this issue. Just wanted to point out that you should check your information before wading into lengthy arguments.
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Re: First-past-the-post Voting System

Post by dxm_dxm » Sun Feb 07, 2016 4:22 pm

I know the moderator is keeping a close eye but I am sorry your wiki article about FPTP system is disputed by another wiki article about runoff voting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-round_system" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That article does not even have a critisism subtitle lol. How is it disputing the one I posted ?
Just like to mention in India it is used to elect the President who is ceremonial/non-executive and India can safely be deleted from the list above. None of the other countries in that list are big enough in any way.
That list is in no way relevant to the subject. You know why ? Because not all countries in the world have elected presidents, many of them are parliamentary republics and some are dictatorships so they do not appear in that list. As I said, the 1 round voting system crazyness and electoral instead of popular vote is used only in the bad part of africa, all others have graduated kindergartner and are 300 years ahead in time https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... System.png" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not a single country on that map is a non-english colony. Just UK and their brainless colonies who after 300 years still do not dare to think for themselves.

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Re: First-past-the-post Voting System

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Feb 07, 2016 8:08 pm

Not all are former British Empire remnants. Laos was a French colony, and that map seems to have your country as First Past the Post, which I guess is a mistake, unless I'm misreading the map.

Note that Australia and New Zealand have had (quite different) forms of proportional representation for some time... :woohoo:

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Re: First-past-the-post Voting System

Post by dxm_dxm » Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:05 pm

Note that Australia and New Zealand have had (quite different) forms of proportional representation for some time...
I see, and that's pretty strange giving the fact that they are not ashamed of their origins and have the UK flag on their own flag. The proud anti-english americans are still too afraid to think for themselves.
Laos was a French colony
It is a communist 1 party state. The probably have that because the great leader is usually elected with 99% in the first round so no need to have a 2 round system. If things get to that point, there is already a problem lol
and that map seems to have your country as First Past the Post, which I guess is a mistake, unless I'm misreading the map.
Lucky that is the case. The only country from EU like that is UK. Those guys next to the caspian sea are the Azerbaijani and are in europe only when it comes to geography and sports, not politics or anything else. They have been under british control at one point too. My country is the fish-shape one under ukraine :D

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Re: First-past-the-post Voting System

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:15 pm

OK, I see, when I expand the map I can see that I confused the Black and Caspian seas. It's Azerbaijan that is coloured in, I think...

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Re: First-past-the-post Voting System

Post by No_Mind » Sun Feb 07, 2016 11:29 pm

dxm_dxm wrote:
I know the moderator is keeping a close eye but I am sorry your wiki article about FPTP system is disputed by another wiki article about runoff votinghttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-round_system
That article does not even have a critisism subtitle lol. How is it disputing the one I posted ?
What I meant is your map https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... System.png does not show Germany and Japan in red. So they must have runoff voting of some type.

But they do not appear in the list of nations with runoff voting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-round_system. Germany has a President while Japan has a Prime Minister and both countries have Parliament.
A two-round system is used also to elect the presidents of Afghanistan, Argentina, Austria, Brazil, Bulgaria, Burkina Faso, Cape Verde, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Croatia, Czech Republic, Cyprus, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Egypt, El Salvador, Finland, Ghana, Guatemala, Haiti, India, Indonesia, Liberia, Peru, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Senegal, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Timor-Leste, Turkey, Ukraine, Uruguay, Zimbabwe
Therefore it is fair to conclude one wiki article is disputing another.
dxm_dxm wrote:That list is in no way relevant to the subject. You know why ? Because not all countries in the world have elected presidents, many of them are parliamentary republics and some are dictatorships so they do not appear in that list.
I am confused by your statement. You are saying that since not all countries have Presidential form of government they do not appear on that list. But they do have legislative bodies. Except France no other nation uses runoff voting as far as I understand.
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Re: First-past-the-post Voting System

Post by dxm_dxm » Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:09 am

Germany and Japan is not shown in red. So they must have runoff voting of some type.

But they do not appear in the list of nations with runoff voting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-round_system" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Germany has a President while Japan has a Prime Minister and both countries have Parliament.
Therefore it is fair to conclude one wiki article is disputing another.
I am confused by your statement. You are saying that since not all countries have Presidential form of government they do not appear on that list. But they do have legislative bodies. Except France no other nation uses runoff voting as far as I understand.
They do not have run-off vote of any sort and do not appear on the list because their prime-minister is chosen by the parliament. There is no need for run off vote for parliament because they are chosen by popular vote not electoral vote because they have graduated kindergarten long ago. In any normal place of the earth people vote parties for parliament and if 7% vote a party they get 7% of the parliament. If 32% vote them they get 32%. So there is no run off vote anywhere in a parliamentary republic.

My lovely Romania is on that list because it's a semi-presidential system. Everything is the same as above only that on top of that there is a president chosen by the people, of course in run off vote. We would have had completely different presidents without this run-off vote at least in the last 3-4 elections because there are many liberal parties and just one big socialist one. The president is head of the army but other than that it has not too much real power but has a lot o image power. If the president - elected and respected by the people says something on TV there is a big voice that is speaking. Over the last 11 years the president and prime-minister were engaged in a bitter war and that was very good for democracy. A lot of mess came out from below the carpet because of the parties attacking each other. The more people the power is shared on, the better. That is what I learned in middle school at democracy lessons. We europeans do not believe in the idea of taking the power away from everybody and putting it in one person witch is human. We did that many times and learned our lessons long time ago.

By the way, we have 22% of our present parliament members on trial and 3% already in jail (from 588) and we have 13 members from the last cabinet on trial or in jail. How many congressman or cabinet members do you have in jail ? Or are americans not humans like us so never do anything ilegal. Hilary got 750k to give speaches. That thing would be given in a suitcase far from watchful eyes over here because that thing is ilegal. Also, sponsorship of campaigns with private money is ilegal. Because of our recent justice reform we are given an example around the world and just today a US official said our political system and economy system are the best in eastern europe at the moment, better than polish one. This thing was possible only because of EU and US helped and guided us through the years. If we would ever decide to take steps in the direction US is right now they would throw us out of NATO and EU for destroying the democracy. US is not promoting it's system around the world because it is known to produce military coups, it's promoting the european one.

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Re: First-past-the-post Voting System

Post by dxm_dxm » Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:21 am

Also we had a little experiment with the electoral system recently. Of course we did not do any craziness like the english but nevertheless we had something to do with the system. For the last 2 elections we had a electoral system with redistribution for the members o parliament. This meant that the winner goes to parliament but there are seats that are distributed to the other parties based on total number of popular vote. This made the big parties get 1-3% more, going from like 40% to 42% things like that. A party who won no electoral collage but had 17% popular vote got just 16% representation. Also the system produced the most corrupt parliament and cabinet possible because there was no responsibility of the party about these guys. "The people voted them, why blame me if they are corrupt?" And indeed people voted politicians on trial and even voted a guy who got in jail days before the election. There is no responsibility in the individual voter either. But the main reason was that 1-3% that was gained by the big parties, something considered undemocratic by the people so we changed back to the old party-list system. Now there is no vote wasted.

You see, we Romanians try different methods to see what is better and what suits out country most. That is what all europeans are doing. Only UK and USA decided that 1700s was the century of political perfection and everything should be kept like it was then.

Look at our last presidential elections:

First tour
Socialist 40.44%
Liberals 30.37%

Second tour
Socialist 45.56%
Liberals 54.43%

Look how big the difference was, what a turn-around. This always happens because we have more liberal parties than socialist ones. A 1 tour vote would limit our number of liberal parties to 1 and completely distort the elections. We elected an ethnic german from a small minority by the way.

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Re: First-past-the-post Voting System

Post by No_Mind » Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:58 am

dxm_dxm wrote: They do not have run-off vote of any sort and do not appear on the list because their prime-minister is chosen by the parliament. There is no need for run off vote for parliament because they are chosen by popular vote not electoral vote
In India and UK the Prime Minister is at first glance chosen by popular vote and not electoral vote.

However -- in a way even in India and UK it is electoral votes which select the PM and not popular vote.

Let us say there are 530 seats and a party has secured 300 seats by popular vote. The MPs who won those seats (Members of Parliament of each party) will meet and select a leader of Parliamentary Party -- who in case of the ruling party will be the PM; usually this choice is known before election but not always.

Now suppose the PM earns dislike of his party or dies -- a new PM can be selected by MPs. Thus there is after all electoral vote even in Westminster system.

And I have an example for you -- Indian general elections in 2004; Congress Party came to power after projecting Sonia Gandhi as PM candidate; but after her party won she decided that it would be preferable to have a quiet economist Dr Manmohan Singh (who was not a MP elected by popular vote) as PM. Did Indians vote for Dr Manmohan Singh as PM .. no .. did they get him as PM .. yes .. did Indians who voted have any say in the matter .. no.

As far as I know same is possible in UK too. But these nations are marked in red in your map.

My example with UK and India is also followed by Germany and Japan. Thus what you said is not correct.

In probably every country at end of the day it is electoral votes which matter in the final count regardless of the manner in which elections are held.

While it seems in UK, Prime Minister is elected by popular vote and in US, President has been elected by electoral votes .. in actuality the Prime Minister of UK rules as long he has confidence of his MPs (electoral votes) and he maybe replaced without calling for fresh elections (of course a new cabinet will have to be sworn in also) if his opponents in the party are sufficiently unified (at least in theory it is possible).
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Re: First-past-the-post Voting System

Post by No_Mind » Mon Feb 08, 2016 1:15 am

But yes there is a defect in Westminster system and popular voting.

It is as follows --

Imagine there is a train with 10 compartments (parliamentary seats) and one needs to win in 6 compartments to be the Prime Minister.

There are 100 passengers on the train (voters) spread evenly. Party A gets 20% votes but almost all its 20 voters are in compartment 2 and 9. Party B gets 30 % vote but its 30 voters are spread evenly through all 10 compartments. Party C gets 4 % vote and wins compartment 10 (with 4 voters) because all its voters are in one compartment.

Party B wins in FPTP though 70 % did not vote for it (it has won 7 compartments out of 10).

The problem is there is no reasonable alternative. Even if there was a 2nd round runoff between Party A and B .. B would still win and and probably win by a greater margin (8 compartments) since C is not allowed and compartment 10 will fall to B.

All forms of democracy have some defect or other. It is neatly summarized here http://aceproject.org/ace-en/topics/es/esd/esd05
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Re: First-past-the-post Voting System

Post by dxm_dxm » Mon Feb 08, 2016 2:09 am

The problem with what you are saying about that train has to do with the fact that there is no reason, no principle, no reasonable explanation for forcing the people of the train to vote like that except for 2 big parties wanting to keep their power forever. That is why nobody uses electoral vote and all use national-wide popular vote. :smile:

What you said is also exactly what I am trying to say in regards to UK and US having a supreme leader. Take a look at this map: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President ... rnment.svg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and read the criticism in the article... You see any decent country with this system ?

India, Germany, Romania etc. prime minister is elected directly by the parliament. They can put who they want at any time with a 50+1 majority not new elections or some impossible thing to do. Having many parties they can easily change sides so there really has to be some degree of consensus and democracy between them in this system. Rarely is it seen for a single party to control the government. That is why governments change about 1 time during a term depending on the flow. At this moment because of 100k people from 22mil protesting the prime minister resigned and we have a technocrat non-affiliated prime minister right now. The prime-minister is completely dependent on the party and the party is dependent on the people. A prime minister is not a supreme unchangeable ruler for the whole election term. This is why the presidential system is practically an elected dictatorship especially if he has the attributes of a president in the same time like in US. The people have power just once every 4 years not every day. Add to that the electoral vote instead of popular vote and the insanity of 1 round elections and you get a pretty non-dependent on people political system.

Procents are lost every week depending on what happens. Every 1% lost is 1% somebody else gets because there are no wasted votes. Also, parties do not have a solid base to rely on. People don't look at them like at their football team. If you are a liberal party there are another 3 liberal parties too. Even if you are a small nationalist party there are another 3 guys like you. Every vote matters so everybody is way more attentive to the people. Parties % change very much and you always need that % up because every % matters in local elections for mayers, for european parliament , parliamentary ellections, presidential elections. This is why parliamentary systems and semi-presidential systems give way more power to the people. Every single vote matters and it's a fierce battle.

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Re: First-past-the-post Voting System

Post by chownah » Mon Feb 08, 2016 10:12 am

I think in a democracy it is more important to have intelligent voters than the exact form of the gov't....after all it is what the gov't does that is important, not how the gov't was established. I think that all of the forms of gov't which have been discussed here have established both good and bad regimes. I think there might be a tendency to blame the form of the government as a way for the people to avoid the responsibility for choosing and acting wisely.
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Re: First-past-the-post Voting System

Post by dxm_dxm » Mon Feb 08, 2016 11:59 am

chownah wrote:I think in a democracy it is more important to have intelligent voters than the exact form of the gov't....after all it is what the gov't does that is important, not how the gov't was established. I think that all of the forms of gov't which have been discussed here have established both good and bad regimes. I think there might be a tendency to blame the form of the government as a way for the people to avoid the responsibility for choosing and acting wisely.
chownah
Completely wrong. We europeans don't believe in enlightened rulers since long ago. This idea was proven wrong by history. That is why people invented democracy systems in the first place. All it matters in politics is interest, stop believing in utopia. To have a good democratic system the power has to rely on the people. Absolute power corrupts in absolute ways. Also, can you blame the chinese people for their ruler ? No, because they only have 1 option on that voting paper. You guys have 2 and these guys do not depend on people, do not have interest in the people after been elected. It is foolishness to believe that by choosing the right guy from the only 2 options you are given by the system you are going to be ok. In order to be ok, you need a system build correctly, one in witch interest rely on the people. I know another guy who keeps telling everybody about this idea of enlightened rules and that such covert dictatorships are stable and democracies are weak and fragile :smile: his name is Putin. This is kids propaganda from the system. Such un-democratic systems are effective only in war time and for big countries, not at all in peace time.

How can you chose the right guy if you only have 2 options otherwise your vote is thrown at the garbage ? You threw 70% of the votes in 2005 election at garbage so only very few of the people are actually choosing. We have no wasted votes over here. Even if you chose the right guy, will you chose the right one all the time ? Why give your power to somebody else and put hope in him more than you put in yourself ? Is he not human too and subject to human defilements ? The more power you give, the more corrupt they will get. Proven by history long, long ago. Imagine if there would be no police, would the people behave better ?

Can you please explain me what is the reason, the principle, the resonable explanation for forcing people to vote like in the above example, in different compartiments of the train and not the train as a hole ? Why in the world would anybody do such a thing ???

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