US & UK: Are we really developed?

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WorldTraveller
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Re: US & UK: Are we really developed?

Post by WorldTraveller » Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:32 pm

No_Mind wrote:What is the correlation between high external debt and high crime rate :? (except that they rhyme)
Since you are the first to talk about a correlation, the answer is due from you. :smile:

I was surprised about the top two debt when I saw it, that's why I posted it as a side note.
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Re: US & UK: Are we really developed?

Post by No_Mind » Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:55 pm

WorldTraveller wrote: Since you are the first to talk about a correlation, the answer is due from you. :smile:

I was surprised about the top two debt when I saw it, that's why I posted it as a side note.
You did not know US is #1 debtor nation? :?

Just out of curiosity .. did you miss all the brouhaha over debt ceiling crisis of 2011 and 13?
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WorldTraveller
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Re: US & UK: Are we really developed?

Post by WorldTraveller » Mon Dec 28, 2015 1:08 pm

No_Mind wrote:Just out of curiosity .. did you miss all the brouhaha over debt ceiling crisis of 2011 and 13?
Well, I spent 8 years in Asia totally away from decadent Western brouhaha! :sage: Of course, I heard about some of it later, but #1? NO. And, UK as #2. What brouhaha caused that? :smile:
“Do not go by oral tradition, by lineage of teaching, by hearsay, by a canonical tradition, by logical reasoning, by inferential reasoning, by reasoned cogitation, by the acceptance of a view after pondering it, by the seeming competence of a speaker, or because you think: ‘The ascetic is our guru.’”
- Kālāma-sutta

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samseva
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Re: US & UK: Are we really developed?

Post by samseva » Mon Dec 28, 2015 4:49 pm

WorldTraveller wrote:Both below links indicated the source as UN Office on Drugs & Crime (UNODC)

Top 10 Countries With Highest Reported Crime Rates in 2011
1. United States of America
2. Germany
3. France
4. Russian Federation
5. Italy
6. Canada
7. Chile
8. Poland
9. Spain
10. Netherlands

Top 10 Countries with highest Crime Rate in 2014
1. United States of America
2. Canada
3. Germany
4. Poland
5. South Africa
6. Italy
7. Zambia
8. Uganda
9. Korea
10. Ethiopia

On a side note, surprisingly, US & UK ranked 1 & 2 in the Top Ten Countries with the Most Debt in 2013. Source: World Bank Quarterly External Debt Statistics.
A very important factor missing in these misrepresentative statistics is the fact that for crimes to be taken into account, they must be reported, there needs to be arrests and they need to be documented. This is probably why there are so many very civilized countries—where there are much more arrests, crimes that are reported and documented—and why countries like Mexico, many other African countries and so on aren't listed. There are huge amounts of crime in these places and in similar places; they just aren't documented and calculated.

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Re: US & UK: Are we really developed?

Post by Cittasanto » Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:31 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Cittasanto wrote: I looked at some others and at best sources are news outlets who's source is about:blank with no download, or referring back to itself. Or not using crime figures but what appears to be street polls for data, or nothing more than opinion and fallacious plea's as to what constitutes evidence, or outdated (one being 16 years old in a few days).

The problem is even reliable statistics can not give 100% reliable data, but the rubbish posted as evidence does even more harm to actually doing something appropriate due to the lack of understanding the authors have with the specialised terms and then subsequent misinformation based on poor scholarship (the assumption that homicide is murder in the crime rate link shared, when all murders are homicide but not all homicides are murders).

Kind Regards
Cittasanto.
:goodpost:

I would add that people would do much better if they become scientific in the way they think and gain their knowledge. The label "science" became a religion for many modern people in the way they see it as "authority" and has to be believed without questioning!
even scientists can not go outside their field very well, as they are not equipped with the training and knowledge to adequetly argue.
The reason I used the homicide example in one of the links is because it is a mistake two "scientists" made within the past 12 months.

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Cittasanto
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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Re: US & UK: Are we really developed?

Post by Cittasanto » Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:45 pm

yet these have other issues with them that have already been mentioned.
WorldTraveller wrote:Both below links indicated the source as UN Office on Drugs & Crime (UNODC)

Top 10 Countries With Highest Reported Crime Rates in 2011
1. United States of America
2. Germany
3. France
4. Russian Federation
5. Italy
6. Canada
7. Chile
8. Poland
9. Spain
10. Netherlands

Top 10 Countries with highest Crime Rate in 2014
1. United States of America
2. Canada
3. Germany
4. Poland
5. South Africa
6. Italy
7. Zambia
8. Uganda
9. Korea
10. Ethiopia

On a side note, surprisingly, US & UK ranked 1 & 2 in the Top Ten Countries with the Most Debt in 2013. Source: World Bank Quarterly External Debt Statistics.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Bundokji
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Re: US & UK: Are we really developed?

Post by Bundokji » Tue Dec 29, 2015 5:16 am

Cittasanto wrote: even scientists can not go outside their field very well, as they are not equipped with the training and knowledge to adequetly argue.
The reason I used the homicide example in one of the links is because it is a mistake two "scientists" made within the past 12 months
I could not agree more, gaining proper knowledge is not an easy task for the human mind which is full of biases and fallacies. When I said we should be scientific in the way we think, is to have the ability and the willingness to question the flawed and pseudoscientific reports that is spread all over the internet. As long as the human mind is not free from authority it wont be able to think freely.

For example, if you open the borders of the US and UK for immigrants from developing countries (which is the vast majority in the world), I can be certain that almost everyone want to move there and never move back again to where they came from. If you ask someone who lives in south Africa and visited the US which country is safer, the answer would be so obvious even if it contradicts with the misrepresented (as samseva described them) reports on this thread.

Bernie Sanders in his campaign argued that a huge number of people who are incarcerated in US jails are marijuana users. There are numerous factors if we think a bit deeply would show who the data used in this thread can be easily misinterpreted.

What is happening here is the use of random data that we are not quite sure how is it collected and how to relate it to the bigger picture, instead we generalize it and draw wrong conclusions out of it.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Re: US & UK: Are we really developed?

Post by No_Mind » Tue Dec 29, 2015 5:42 am

Bundokji wrote: For example, if you open the borders of the US and UK for immigrants from developing countries (which is the vast majority in the world), I can be certain that almost everyone want to move there and never move back again to where they came from. If you ask someone who lives in south Africa and visited the US which country is safer, the answer would be so obvious even if it contradicts with the misrepresented (as samseva described them) reports on this thread.
Hate to pick an off topic quibble but that is over stating it a bit. I am not sure every Indian or Chinese or Brazilian or Thai wants to move to US and UK. The middle class in these countries have pretty comfy and secure life quite comparable to life in US and UK.

Why on earth would I want to move to US? I am not a scientist/techie nor a manual laborer who wants to work at a construction site or drive a cab.

Actually vast majority of this world (by population) is not developing countries but newly industrialized countries

Developing country is bit of a pejorative when referring to India, China, Brazil, South Africa, Mexico, Thailand and Turkey. Bangladesh is an example of a developing country.
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Re: US & UK: Are we really developed?

Post by Bundokji » Tue Dec 29, 2015 5:57 am

No_Mind wrote:
Bundokji wrote: For example, if you open the borders of the US and UK for immigrants from developing countries (which is the vast majority in the world), I can be certain that almost everyone want to move there and never move back again to where they came from. If you ask someone who lives in south Africa and visited the US which country is safer, the answer would be so obvious even if it contradicts with the misrepresented (as samseva described them) reports on this thread.
Hate to pick an off topic quibble but that is over stating it a bit. I am not sure every Indian or Chinese or Brazilian or Thai wants to move to US and UK. The middle class in these countries have pretty comfy and secure life quite comparable to life in US and UK.

Why on earth would I want to move to US? I am not a scientist/techie nor a manual laborer who wants to work at a construction site or drive a cab.
When I studied my master degree in Australia, most Indian and Chinese students that I knew had plans to apply for immigration after finishing their course. They are neither scientists nor workers at construction sites, mostly ambitious middle class.

My interpretation is that in these two countries the level of competition in these markets is too high. Also the average wage in developed countries is higher, secularism can also be appealing to many.

The number of Indians in Arab gulf is more than the locals. I admit that most of them are labours, but there are many middle class Indians as well. In addition, the working condition for indian workers in Arab gulf is terrible, but they still do it. The only logical interpretation is they find life in India more difficult.

By the way, I don't think its wise to pick a particular class if we want to look at the bigger picture.

Peace
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Re: US & UK: Are we really developed?

Post by Bundokji » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:04 am

Personally I don't see a difference between developing countries and newly industrialized countries.

There is also one point to contemplate. Why most immigration goes from east to west, not vise versa?

From my observations, most western immigrants to the east do it either for spiritual reasons, or to enjoy their retirement income in cheaper countries so they can have higher standards of living.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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No_Mind
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Re: US & UK: Are we really developed?

Post by No_Mind » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:09 am

Bundokji wrote: When I studied my master degree in Australia, most Indian and Chinese students that I knew had plans to apply for immigration after finishing their course. They are neither scientists nor workers at construction sites, mostly ambitious middle class.

My interpretation is that in these two countries the level of competition in these markets is too high. Also the average wage in developed countries is higher, secularism can also be appealing to many.

The number of Indians in Arab gulf is more than the locals. I admit that most of them are labours, but there are many middle class Indians as well. In addition, the working condition for indian workers in Arab gulf is terrible, but they still do it. The only logical interpretation is they find life in India more difficult.

By the way, I don't think its wise to pick a particular class if we want to look at the bigger picture.

Peace
I did not say there is no Indian or Chinese diaspora. Certainly there is. But to say "every" is bit of a stretch.

The Indians you met in Australia are not our best and brightest. I cannot expand on that here since it is not the proper forum for doing so.
Last edited by No_Mind on Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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No_Mind
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Re: US & UK: Are we really developed?

Post by No_Mind » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:20 am

Bundokji wrote:Personally I don't see a difference between developing countries and newly industrialized countries.

There is also one point to contemplate. Why most immigration goes from east to west, not vise versa?

From my observations, most western immigrants to the east do it either for spiritual reasons, or to enjoy their retirement income in cheaper countries so they can have higher standards of living.
This is rather mind boggling comment.

So to you India (hate to bring up India so often in this discussion but I am an Indian and can speak about my country without offending anyone) and Albania are same? China is sending man to moon. You want to compare China to Bangladesh?

Just one example will suffice. We put a Mars orbiter into Martian orbit at first attempt. No one including US has done it in first attempt. Japan and China have failed to place their orbiter in Martian orbit at all. What on earth are you talking about?

There was a time when Westerners came East for reasons other than spiritual .. it was to loot and plunder. We remember it well. UK is built on what was looted from India. At least we Easterners never stole from other people.

If this gets me banned from here so be it.
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Re: US & UK: Are we really developed?

Post by cooran » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:56 am

Hello no_mind,

India is a wonderful country - I have visited it six or seven times.

But it has invaded other countries too, and taken their assets.

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-I ... gn-country" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

With metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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No_Mind
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Re: US & UK: Are we really developed?

Post by No_Mind » Tue Dec 29, 2015 7:08 am

cooran wrote:Hello no_mind,

India is a wonderful country - I have visited it six or seven times.

But it has invaded other countries too, and taken their assets.

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-I ... gn-country

With metta,
Chris
In that way you are correct.

But ... Indian subcontinent stretches from east Afghanistan till north Burma ... so it was Easterners stealing from other Easterners. On the whole the East (from Arabs to Koreans) have been more content with what they had than try and methodically loot the other hemisphere.

Mahmud of Ghazni attacked India 17 times between 1005 and 1040 AD but if we could go back to 1750, I would rather that he attacked us 17 more times rather than British arrived on our shores.

:anjali:
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Bundokji
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Re: US & UK: Are we really developed?

Post by Bundokji » Tue Dec 29, 2015 7:41 am

No_Mind wrote:
Bundokji wrote:Personally I don't see a difference between developing countries and newly industrialized countries.

There is also one point to contemplate. Why most immigration goes from east to west, not vise versa?

From my observations, most western immigrants to the east do it either for spiritual reasons, or to enjoy their retirement income in cheaper countries so they can have higher standards of living.
This is rather mind boggling comment.

So to you India (hate to bring up India so often in this discussion but I am an Indian and can speak about my country without offending anyone) and Albania are same? China is sending man to moon. You want to compare China to Bangladesh?

Just one example will suffice. We put a Mars orbiter into Martian orbit at first attempt. No one including US has done it in first attempt. Japan and China have failed to place their orbiter in Martian orbit at all. What on earth are you talking about?

There was a time when Westerners came East for reasons other than spiritual .. it was to loot and plunder. We remember it well. UK is built on what was looted from India. At least we Easterners never stole from other people.

If this gets me banned from here so be it.
I understand what you are saying but from my personal experience, the difference between developing and developed countries is far more complicated than technological advancement.

I visited India and i loved the country. Personally, if i have to choose to live in the east or the west, i prefer the east because i like the simplicity and the warmth i can find there. However, this is my personal opinion and i am trying not to allow it to cloud my judgment.

When i visited India, i found that public hygiene to be big problem and one major factor to distinguish developed countries from developing one (at least in my mind!). The topic is not about India but you are the ones who brought it up. To avoid any misunderstanding, i am telling you in advance that i find India to better than my own country in most aspects (i live in Jordan, another developing country). However, i can't help but to emphasis on looking into the big picture and what makes a country developed. The link i am sharing should not be generalized, but it might help to convey a message that i hope it wont be misinterpreted.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-20601552" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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