Inspiring University President stands up against intellectual infantilization

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 3058
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: Inspiring University President stands up against intellectual infantilization

Post by Mr Man » Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:08 am

samseva wrote: Relatively significant:

.
Hi samseva

In the UK we have Hate speech laws do you think they should be removed? Do you perceive hate speech laws as "intellectual infantilization"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_spee ... ed_Kingdom" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23043
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Inspiring University President stands up against intellectual infantilization

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:14 am

Paul Davy wrote:Greetings Tilt,

Did you watch Samseva's video?

... and if after that you think that standing up against intellectual infantilization and violations of the freedom of speech is pointless, and you still question "the point of the cataloguing all this stuff", then why aren't you speaking in a different topic on topics that actually interest you?

In short - why keep going on at us, page after page, about how you're not interested in what we are here to talk about in this topic?

We're not bombarding the Global Warming topic questioning "the point of the cataloguing all this stuff"... so why do you do so here?
Page after page? That is a bit of an exaggeration. The GW topic is a bit different in content, scope, and structure. It is not that I am not interested. Obviously I am otherwise why would I be posting here. As for supporting free speech, I certainly do, and I am a supporter of the ACLU, but in what it is that you are talking about, it seem that trying understand the underlying issues the SJWs are passionate about but dealing with unskillfully, would be far more productive than just engaging them in combat. It is not that one should not speak out strongly against attempts to stifle speech, but there really should be, if one is take Dhamma principles seriously, more.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 18611
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Inspiring University President stands up against intellectual infantilization

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:14 am

Greetings Mr Man,

South Park to the rescue again...

http://alibertarianfuture.com/big-gover ... YsT2v.dpbs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 18611
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Inspiring University President stands up against intellectual infantilization

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:21 am

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:...it seem that trying understand the underlying issues the SJWs are passionate about but dealing with unskillfully, would be far more productive than just engaging them in combat.
The individual issues are not the concern of this specific topic. As was mentioned earlier, if SJW's engaged others with more civility and with less vitriol and distrust, they would find they actually had more allies in supporting their "underlying issues" than they started with. However, often they wish to intentionally exclude potential allies because they do not fit the profile of the supposedly oppressed demographic. It would be like you being excluded from the Black Lives Matter conversation because you're white.

The individual issue addressed in this topic is that intellectual infantilization and the application of the SJW ideology to the various issues we face in the world today, leads us away from free speech and towards totalitarianism, politically-correct censorship and the eradication of free speech... a serious issue in itself.
tiltbillings wrote:It is not that one should not speak out strongly against attempts to stifle speech, but there really should be, if one is take Dhamma principles seriously, more.
Are you able to elaborate what you mean here?

Metta,
Paul. :)
Last edited by retrofuturist on Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:34 am, edited 3 times in total.
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 3058
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: Inspiring University President stands up against intellectual infantilization

Post by Mr Man » Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:26 am

Paul Davy wrote:Greetings Mr Man,

South Park to the rescue again...

http://alibertarianfuture.com/big-gover ... YsT2v.dpbs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Paul. :)
Paul, except the video is a misrepresentation.

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 18611
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Inspiring University President stands up against intellectual infantilization

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:27 am

Greetings Mr Man,
Mr Man wrote:Paul, except the video is a misrepresentation.
How so?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 3058
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: Inspiring University President stands up against intellectual infantilization

Post by Mr Man » Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:36 am

Paul Davy wrote:Greetings Mr Man,
Mr Man wrote:Paul, except the video is a misrepresentation.
How so?

Metta,
Paul. :)
Because in the UK it is not necessarily a hate crime "if somebody kills someone of a different colour". Colour is not a determining factor.

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23043
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Inspiring University President stands up against intellectual infantilization

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:39 am

Paul Davy wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:...it seem that trying understand the underlying issues the SJWs are passionate about but dealing with unskillfully, would be far more productive than just engaging them in combat.
The individual issues are not the concern of this specific topic. As was mentioned earlier, if SJW's engaged others with more civility and with less vitriol and distrust, they would find they actually had more allies in supporting their "underlying issues" than they started with. However, often they wish to intentionally exclude potential allies because they do not fit the profile of the supposedly oppressed demographic.
If there were an acknowledgment of the underlying issues in a conversation with the SJWs the likelihood is that there could a more civil conversation.
The individual issue addressed in this topic is that intellectual infantilization and the application of the SJW ideology to the various issues we face in the world today, leads us away from free speech and towards totalitarianism and the eradication of free speech... a serious issue in itself.
Ideology? the various issues we face in the world today Which is clearly why the issues, as is appropriate to the context, should understood and addressed as part of the response to the threat of free speech, and in part to some degree doing that might be an act of compassion, connexion, understanding.
tiltbillings wrote:It is not that one should not speak out strongly against attempts to stifle speech, but there really should be, if one is take Dhamma principles seriously, more.
Are you able to elaborate what you mean here?[/quote]It is 0330. At this point I am too damned tired. I am off to bed.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 18611
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Inspiring University President stands up against intellectual infantilization

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:41 am

Greetings Mr Man,

This sounds entirely analogous...
Section 18 of the Act says:

A person who uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening, abusive or insulting, is guilty of an offence if—

(a) he intends thereby to stir up racial hatred, or
(b) having regard to all the circumstances racial hatred is likely to be stirred up thereby.
Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 18611
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Inspiring University President stands up against intellectual infantilization

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:44 am

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:If there were an acknowledgment of the underlying issues in a conversation with the SJWs the likelihood is that there could a more civil conversation.
Unlikely when their first step is to accuse you of being a white, straight, male... qualities which in their eyes invalidate you from having an opinion on the matter and instantly classify you as an oppressor, to be personally blamed for the entire history of misdemeanours made by white man.

Or worse...



Metta,
Paul. :)
Last edited by retrofuturist on Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 3058
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: Inspiring University President stands up against intellectual infantilization

Post by Mr Man » Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:44 am

Paul Davy wrote:
The individual issue addressed in this topic is that intellectual infantilization and the application of the SJW ideology to the various issues we face in the world today, leads us away from free speech and towards totalitarianism, politically-correct censorship and the eradication of free speech... a serious issue in itself.
Hi Paul
Isn't the notion that there is an "SJW ideology" a fallacy? Is there an umbrella organization?
Also - Do you have examples of politically-correct censorship which have had a negative impact on society as a whole?

User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 3058
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: Inspiring University President stands up against intellectual infantilization

Post by Mr Man » Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:52 am

Paul Davy wrote:Greetings Mr Man,

This sounds entirely analogous...
Section 18 of the Act says:

A person who uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening, abusive or insulting, is guilty of an offence if—

(a) he intends thereby to stir up racial hatred, or
(b) having regard to all the circumstances racial hatred is likely to be stirred up thereby.
Metta,
Paul. :)
Paul, sorry but I don't understand what you are saying here.

I guess you believe that the UK Hate speech laws should be removed though?

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23043
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Inspiring University President stands up against intellectual infantilization

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:53 am

Paul Davy wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:If there were an acknowledgment of the underlying issues in a conversation with the SJWs the likelihood is that there could a more civil conversation.
Unlikely when their first step is to accuse you of being a white, straight, male... qualities which in their eyes invalidate you from having an opinion on the matter and instantly classify you as an oppressor, to be personally blamed for the entire history of misdemeanours made by white man.

Or worse...



Metta,
Paul. :)
And these people are a direct threat? And do we characterize all the SJWs by the most extreme fringe aspects who marginalize themselves?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 18611
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Inspiring University President stands up against intellectual infantilization

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:55 am

Greetings Mr Man,
Mr Man wrote:Isn't the notion that there is an "SJW ideology" a fallacy?
Not really, I outlined SJW values in great detail earlier. As with any label it's a general descriptor that you can drill further and further into on a case-by-case basis. That is true of all terms and expressions, and that doesn't negate their value as a classifier.
Mr Man wrote:Is there an umbrella organization?
There simply can't be, because they tear themselves apart from the inside. Once their "oppressed/victimised group" of choice gets progressively more targeted over time... e.g. from women, to coloured women, to LGBTI coloured women, to LGBTI Hispanic women in wheelchairs etc.... they eventually "other" all their potential allies, and hide in ever diminishing echo-chambers.
Mr Man wrote:Also - Do you have examples of politically-correct censorship which have had a negative impact on society as a whole?
It already is having a negative impact... have you not been looking at all the links shared? Do you think these developments are positive?

Metta,
Paul. :)
Last edited by retrofuturist on Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 18611
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Inspiring University President stands up against intellectual infantilization

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:59 am

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:And do we characterize all the SJWs by the most extreme fringe aspects who marginalize themselves?
That's precisely who and what they are, by definition.

The rest... the people who don't do these things aren't SJWs.
The term social justice warrior is not easy to define in a concise way. Since it describes people who behave in certain characteristic ways (e.g., eagerly participating in online shaming, outrage, dogpiling, vigilantism) and is often confused with terms like social justice advocate or social justice activist that bear little overlap, lengthy definitions with lots of examples tend to be necessary to communicate the intended meaning and clear up the inevitable confusion.

But what if we wanted to come up with the briefest definition possible, one that captured the essence of what it means to be a social justice warrior without getting bogged down in all the details and behavioral examples. Such a brief definition might have utility, especially when responding to questions about what the term means. But what might such a definition look like?

This is merely a starting point for the purpose of generating discussion, but I think a brief definition might look something like this:

A social justice warrior is someone who actively condemns and seeks to harm those who express socio-political views contrary to his or her own while claiming to promote social justice.


In unpacking this definition, we might note:

For the social justice warrior, it is not enough to recognize that people are going to have different opinions on important socio-political issues (e.g., feminism, humanism, which political candidates one supports); those who disagree are immoral and deserving of punishment.

The social justice warrior pursues active condemnation (e.g., the assignment of inflammatory labels, name calling, personal insults) of those who disagree.

The social justice warrior aims to inflict harm on those who do not share his or her views, usually by attempting to damage the target's reputation, status, or livelihood.

The social justice warrior justifies his or her behavior on the grounds that it is perceived as advancing a valuable social justice agenda (e.g., eradicating social ills such as sexism or racism).

It is often asked how the social justice warrior manages to treat people poorly without experiencing the sort of moral emotions (e.g., guilt, shame) that might otherwise accompany such behavior. I think it is is mistake to assume that social justice warriors must have some sort of sadistic streak even though I acknowledge that it can look that way at times. The thing to remember is that in their minds, they are going good. Harming others is okay if it advances one's agenda (i.e., mob justice is viewed as an acceptable). The ends justify the means, and this is true even when the means involve treating others quite poorly.

Thanks to constant outrage, self-righteous indignation, and the absolute conviction that one is in the right and that dissenters are "part of the problem," the social justice warrior is able to transform persons who disagree or cause offense into agents of evil. Those who disagree are "part of the problem," meaning that they stand in the way of progress. This makes them bad people, and bad people deserve what they get. Thus, the social justice warrior is able to inflict harm on others while avoiding guilt. He or she may even manage to feel quite content with his or her maltreatment of others.
Source

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 3058
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: Inspiring University President stands up against intellectual infantilization

Post by Mr Man » Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:31 am

Paul Davy wrote:Greetings Mr Man,
Mr Man wrote:Isn't the notion that there is an "SJW ideology" a fallacy?
Not really, I outlined SJW values in great detail earlier. As with any label it's a general descriptor that you can drill further and further into on a case-by-case basis. That is true of all terms and expressions, and that doesn't negate their value.
Mr Man wrote:Is there an umbrella organization?
There simply can't be, because they tear themselves apart from the inside. Once their "oppressed/victimised group" of choice gets progressively more targeted over time... e.g. from women, to coloured women, to LGBTI coloured women, to LGBTI Hispanic women in wheelchairs etc.... they eventually "other" all their potential allies, and hide in ever diminishing echo-chambers.
Mr Man wrote:Also - Do you have examples of politically-correct censorship which have had a negative impact on society as a whole?
It already is having a negative impact... have you not been looking at all the links shared? Do you think these developments are positive?
Hi Paul
Do you mean your list of disparaging comments on the previous page? It seems like SJW is used as a blanket term of disparagement for myriad groups with differing views and strategies. If we start a conversation from a viewpoint of disparagement it is really quite difficult to get anywhere, in my opinion.

As for examples (in the links within Dhamma Wheel) I don't see any that really show a negative impact on society as a whole. In my opinion most have incidents which have been taken out of context and in some cases there significance overblown (such is the internet).

I do think it is positive if students are becoming more politically aware and a challenging traditional ways of thinking. No doubt sometimes they will get things wrong, that is the nature of learning.

If we were to look back to the early suffragette movement in the UK I'm sure that within that movement there were element which were seen as extreme, a woman even jumped in front of the king's horse. In my opinion the overall impact on society was good. The same could be said about the civil rights movement in the US in the 60s. Hopefully that will be the case with resent day activism.


User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 18611
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Inspiring University President stands up against intellectual infantilization

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:51 am

Greetings Mr Man,
Mr Man wrote:Do you mean your list of disparaging comments on the previous page? It seems like SJW is used as a blanket term of disparagement for myriad groups with differing views and strategies.
You've been saying much the same thing throughout this entire topic. Why do you deem it disparaging to call out bad behaviours and use the medium of language to do so?

Besides, Cittasanto's earlier video shows you that Social Justice Warriors often embrace the term and since no other classification - self-made or externally derived - has taken off (despite generous attempts by opponents to put forward alternatives like "neo-progressivism"), then until there's a different term to use, Social Justice Warrior has classificatory value.
Mr Man wrote:If we start a conversation from a viewpoint of disparagement it is really quite difficult to get anywhere, in my opinion.
I'd rather not have the conversation with an SJW, thanks.

Image
Mr Man wrote:As for examples (in the links within Dhamma Wheel) I don't see any that really show a negative impact on society as a whole.
Well when free speech becomes an ancient relic of Western Civilization, you're welcome to be chuffed about it, if that takes your fancy.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
Dan74
Posts: 3012
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:12 pm

Re: Inspiring University President stands up against intellectual infantilization

Post by Dan74 » Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:36 am

Paul, a colleague of mine is a fan of the so-called Neo-reactionary movement, which likes to talk about the Cathedral, 'the unholy trinity' of progressive academia, media and government that enforce the current groupthink. I think you will enjoy their materials.
_/|\_

User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 5634
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: Inspiring University President stands up against intellectual infantilization

Post by Aloka » Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:52 am

.


<<<Sigh >>>> armchair politics, armchair social media, armchair internet "Buddhism "..... are we all getting fat and mentally cranky from the consumption of too many "pies" ?



:alien:

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests