Inspiring University President stands up against intellectual infantilization

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Mr Man
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Re: Inspiring University President stands up against intellectual infantilization

Post by Mr Man » Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:08 pm

tiltbillings wrote: Be that as it may, I am going to go elsewhere on this forum to read about and talk about things of the Dhamma.
A good idea.

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Re: Inspiring University President stands up against intellectual infantilization

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:45 pm

Greetings Mr Man,
Mr Man wrote:I don’t see safe spaces, trigger warnings, legislation against inflammatory speech, banning orders, restrictions on anti-social behavior and objections to cultural appropriation as intrinsically bad. I think these things have a place.
What constitutes "anti-social behaviour" probably warrants further clarification, but setting that one aside for the time being, it's clear we certainly disagree on a lot of issues. And that is OK. People are allowed their opinions.
Mr Man wrote:Are these the two you wouldn't want to have the conversation with?
I wouldn't want to have a conversation with any SJW, those two included. There is no reasoning to be had with ideological extremists who simply want your counter-arguments to go away. There's a certain emotional maturity in allowing someone to have a different opinion... but when people can't bring themselves up to that baseline level of emotional and intellectual maturity, then there is no worthwhile conversation to be had, and they are certainly not fit to censor others.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Inspiring University President stands up against intellectual infantilization

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:53 pm

Greetings,

A recent article from the Wall Street Journal...
Chicago School of Free Speech - An antidote for the infantilizing craze sweeping campuses.

And another on people's need to not be emotionally triggered being prioritised over free speech...
College Students Say Remembering 9/11 Is Offensive to Muslims

"Is feelings-protection now such an overriding goal that completely unreasonable fears win out, even if they have no basis in reality?"

Metta,
Paul. :)
Last edited by retrofuturist on Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:08 am, edited 3 times in total.
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Disciple
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Re: Inspiring University President stands up against intellectual infantilization

Post by Disciple » Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:55 pm


Pay attention to the old hippie professor on his right side coaching him on.

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Re: Inspiring University President stands up against intellectual infantilization

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:18 am

Greetings,

Is the free exchange of ideas being sacrificed for political correctness?
George Boardman wrote:Do we want our colleges and universities to be forums for the free exchange of ideas, or shelters for students who are easily offended by ideas they don’t agree with and actions they find personally hurtful?

That’s the question posed by a series of student disruptions at some of America’s leading institutions of higher learning, a question my generation thought was answered when the Free Speech Movement swept through campuses in the ’60s and ’70s...
The closing of the American mouth: Colleges are teaching students what to think rather than how to think
Suzanne Fields wrote:In his 1987 book, “The Closing of the American Mind,” Allan Bloom wrote a surprising bestseller demonstrating how college students are no longer exposed to the great books and that higher education impoverishes rather than enhances the intellect. Someone could write a sequel called “The Closing of the American Mouth,” where political correctness silences dissent on campus, revealing a deep ignorance of many things, including the classic essays on behalf of free speech from John Milton and John Stuart Mill to the Bill of Rights. Ignorance breeds intolerance.
Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Inspiring University President stands up against intellectual infantilization

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Dec 14, 2015 3:49 am

Greetings,

Wisconsin University Panel Endorses Free Speech
A University of Wisconsin System regents committee unanimously approved a resolution Thursday affirming a commitment to free speech, following the lead of schools around the country that have faced protests over racial tensions and other social issues.
...
"Although the university greatly values civility, concerns about civility and mutual respect can never be used as justification for closing off discussion of ideas, however offensive or disagreeable those ideas may be to some members within the university community," the resolution states.
Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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samseva
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Re: Inspiring University President stands up against intellectual infantilization

Post by samseva » Mon Dec 14, 2015 4:03 am

Mr Man wrote:Hi samseva

In the UK we have Hate speech laws do you think they should be removed? Do you perceive hate speech laws as "intellectual infantilization"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_spee ... ed_Kingdom
No, that's not what I think at all. Did you consider the rest of the video?

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Re: Inspiring University President stands up against intellectual infantilization

Post by samseva » Mon Dec 14, 2015 4:28 am

tiltbillings wrote:Okay, that makes it quite clear as to what you are on about here. I thought, given the above heated rhetoric about totalitarianism and such, that your umbrage was directed at more than the noisy fringies. Of course noisy fringies have a place in national discourse, at least here in the US, often highlighting legitimate concerns, albeit in rather loud, exaggerated, dramatic, abrasive, annoying, and sometimes extreme manners, which is, I assume, designed to get people thinking about, talking about whatever issue that is on their plate, and some of these issues are of significant importance, such as race, gender equality, orientation, economic status, etc.

Now, if you want to take on these Social Justice Warriors by becoming an anti-Social Justice Warrior, then go get 'em. It is all part of the dialogue taking place on the fringes, and some of it can -- and does -- spill into the mainstream. The issue of gay marriage, starting out as a fringe movement, is one very obvious spillover with, from my standpoint, good results. Civil Rights is another, a still ongoing struggle in the US. I'll leave it to you anti-warriors warriors to fight the fight. You guys and the fringies seemed to be made for each other. Be that as it may, I am going to go elsewhere on this forum to read about and talk about things of the Dhamma.
So from your reasoning and your extensive participation in the thread, that would make you an anti-social justice warrior warrior warrior? :smile:

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Re: Inspiring University President stands up against intellectual infantilization

Post by samseva » Mon Dec 14, 2015 4:43 am

tiltbillings wrote:Ideology? the various issues we face in the world today Which is clearly why the issues, as is appropriate to the context, should understood and addressed as part of the response to the threat of free speech, and in part to some degree doing that might be an act of compassion, connexion, understanding.
Yes, valid argument. But does that make it so that it invalidates denouncing that we do currently have a slippery situation? This has been most of your rhetoric throughout the thread—almost and solely as to portray us as making stuff up and fabulating.

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Re: Inspiring University President stands up against intellectual infantilization

Post by samseva » Mon Dec 14, 2015 4:44 am

tiltbillings wrote:...
Mr Man wrote:...
Tilt and Mr Man, I have a question which I would like to ask you both: What is the difference between a group of extreme activists wanting to violate basic rights of everyone as to protect the rights—sometimes only feelings—of marginalized groups? Is this a viable solution?

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Re: Inspiring University President stands up against intellectual infantilization

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Dec 14, 2015 4:52 am

samseva wrote: . . .
Just to let you know, I am no longer participating in this thread beyond telling you that I am no longer particpating in this thread. The time and energy spent on this forum is far better spent considering things directly related to the Dhamma. After seeing this thread play itself out over these pages, I see no real point in it, which is the last I'll be saying about it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Inspiring University President stands up against intellectual infantilization

Post by Ben » Mon Dec 14, 2015 6:08 am

tiltbillings wrote:
samseva wrote: . . .
Just to let you know, I am no longer participating in this thread beyond telling you that I am no longer particpating in this thread. The time and energy spent on this forum is far better spent considering things directly related to the Dhamma. After seeing this thread play itself out over these pages, I see no real point in it, which is the last I'll be saying about it.
Yes, I think this is the best course of action. Thanks for your efforts here, Tilt.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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Re: Inspiring University President stands up against intellectual infantilization

Post by Cittasanto » Mon Dec 14, 2015 6:09 am

Hi All,
Do participants know the difference between a safe space and a place of context is?

Kind Regards
Cittasanto
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Re: Inspiring University President stands up against intellectual infantilization

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Dec 14, 2015 7:40 am

Greetings,

The Lessons of Bygone Free-Speech Fights: Efforts to police offensive language have seldom achieved their goals, and often been turned against the groups they were intended to protect.
I see some of these well-intentioned young people undermining the First Amendment; spitting on people with whom they disagree; using stigma and “call out” culture rather than persuasion against non-bigoted speech; physically intimidating members of the press; bullying students who disagree with them; shredding newspapers because they disagree with an article; and calling for dissent to be punished. They don’t understand why this is both counterproductive and wrongheaded.
Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Mr Man
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Re: Inspiring University President stands up against intellectual infantilization

Post by Mr Man » Mon Dec 14, 2015 7:51 am

samseva wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Hi samseva

In the UK we have Hate speech laws do you think they should be removed? Do you perceive hate speech laws as "intellectual infantilization"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_spee ... ed_Kingdom
No, that's not what I think at all. Did you consider the rest of the video?
Hi Samseva,
Yes I did consider it.

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Re: Inspiring University President stands up against intellectual infantilization

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Dec 14, 2015 7:55 am

Greetings,

Now people find a man's surname offensive?...

Naming of Lebanon Valley College's Lynch building questioned amid equality push
A Depression-era Lebanon Valley College leader with the last name Lynch has found himself thrust into the middle of a roiling 21st-century debate on campus civil rights.

Students at the private college in Annville have demanded administrators remove or modify Dr. Clyde A. Lynch's last name, as it appears on a campus hall, due to the associated racial connotations.
Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Mr Man
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Re: Inspiring University President stands up against intellectual infantilization

Post by Mr Man » Mon Dec 14, 2015 7:56 am

samseva wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:...
Mr Man wrote:...
Tilt and Mr Man, I have a question which I would like to ask you both: What is the difference between a group of extreme activists wanting to violate basic rights of everyone as to protect the rights—sometimes only feelings—of marginalized groups? Is this a viable solution?
Hi Samseva,
Sorry but I'm going to answer that one. My last contribution to this thread is going to be to say that it is my opinion that in the society where I live discrimination and other social issues are still are far greater problem than infantilization and the erosion of rights.
All the best

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Re: Inspiring University President stands up against intellectual infantilization

Post by BlkMettaCat » Mon Dec 14, 2015 8:36 am

Aloka wrote:.


<<<Sigh >>>> armchair politics, armchair social media, armchair internet "Buddhism "..... are we all getting fat and mentally cranky from the consumption of too many "pies" ?



:alien:
:rofl:

I'm right there with you, Aloka.
:buddha1:

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Re: Inspiring University President stands up against intellectual infantilization

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Dec 14, 2015 8:45 am

Greetings,

Where will you apply?


The Buckley Program at Yale

Jonathan Haidt on Coddling U. vs. Strengthening U.: Which is best for students in the era of diversity?
:reading: :ugeek:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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samseva
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Re: Inspiring University President stands up against intellectual infantilization

Post by samseva » Mon Dec 14, 2015 9:06 am

Mr Man wrote:Hi Samseva,
Sorry but I'm going to answer that one. My last contribution to this thread is going to be to say that it is my opinion that in the society where I live discrimination and other social issues are still are far greater problem than infantilization and the erosion of rights.
All the best
I agree that infantilization could be a relatively decent trade if it were to reduce discrimination (although a poor one and not certain to be effective), but not erosion of basic rights. Also, my question had to do with violation of basic rights of everyone.

I'd like to quote The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, articles 18, 19 and 20.1:
Article 18
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.
Article 19
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
Article 20
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.
Source: United Nations

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