Bikkhu Bodhi and Buddhist leaders convene at White House

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retrofuturist
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Re: Bikkhu Bodhi and Buddhist leaders convene at White House

Post by retrofuturist » Tue May 26, 2015 6:41 am

Greetings Dan,

It's not that. It's just that my comments regarding the alignment between Bhikkhu Bodhi's current views and those of the Engaged/Humanistic Mahayana traditions were genuine comments... not taken as genuine comments.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Dan74
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Re: Bikkhu Bodhi and Buddhist leaders convene at White House

Post by Dan74 » Tue May 26, 2015 6:46 am

OK, but I guess I failed to see how you meant that he could do it "from the basis of a Mahayana Buddhist Sangha" without actually reordaining as a Mahayana bikkshu, i.e. 'converting'.

So what did you actually suggest by ""he could pursue this "Engaged Buddhism" path in a much safer manner, doing so from the basis of a Mahayana Buddhist Sangha, where there is an established precedence for skillful means (upàya kusala) in teaching overriding Vinaya & Sutta concerns"?

I did take them as genuine, that was just how I understood them.
_/|\_

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Re: Bikkhu Bodhi and Buddhist leaders convene at White House

Post by retrofuturist » Tue May 26, 2015 6:59 am

Greetings Dan,

To be clear, I said "could", not "should".

If his remaining years are to be lived in a manner according to the views presented, I honestly believe he would find more in common with those traditions, which are already established upon similar engaged/humanitarian principles.

No insult intended to either party.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Bikkhu Bodhi and Buddhist leaders convene at White House

Post by Aloka » Tue May 26, 2015 6:59 am

Retrofuturist wrote:...the alignment between Bhikkhu Bodhi's current views and those of the Engaged/Humanistic Mahayana traditions
Not necessarily, - here's the opinion of (Mahayana) Brad Warner, a Soto Zen teacher:
I Wish I Could Agree

Published by Brad on May 15, 2015

Last week, Buddhists all over the Interwebs were wetting themselves over what was being called the “Buddhist Leadership Conference” in which a bunch of people who think of themselves as Buddhist leaders got to go to the White House and pose on the lawn with a big banner that said “US Militarism Breeds Violence, Not Safety: I vow to work for peace & freedom.”

I didn’t get into Buddhism to follow leaders. Nor do I think the Buddha’s advice to “be a lamp unto yourself” implies that we should be the followers of leaders. But I’ll leave that at that.

What bothered me most was the message these self-appointed leaders chose to deliver on behalf of me and the rest of us who describe ourselves as “Buddhists.”

These Buddhist leaders denounced US militarism as ineffective in promoting safety. Yet Buddhism has only been able to survive in countries where the right to be a Buddhist has been protected by a strong military. We Buddhists only get to be nice, soft, peace-loving wimps (let’s please be honest about that) because other people are willing to put themselves in harm’s way to protect us. We are unable, and frankly mostly unwilling, to do that for ourselves. I have great respect for the brave women and men who protect my ability to be a peace-loving wuss.

Continued :

https://hardcorezen.info/i-wish-i-could-agree/3553
:anjali:
Last edited by Aloka on Tue May 26, 2015 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Dan74
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Re: Bikkhu Bodhi and Buddhist leaders convene at White House

Post by Dan74 » Tue May 26, 2015 7:11 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Dan,

To be clear, I said "could", not "should".

If his remaining years are to be lived in a manner according to the views presented, I honestly believe he would find more in common with those traditions, which are already established upon similar engaged/humanitarian principles.

No insult intended to either party.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Thanks, Paul, I think I am kind of getting your point. You are saying that under the Mahayana umbrella, this kind of activity, which has nothing to do with the Buddhadhamma, in your view, is acceptable for a monk, not that Mahayana in its entirety and now Bikkhu Bodhi too, have nothing to do with the Buddhadhamma.

Basically, he should leave Theravada out of it and not muddy its clear waters with such mundane pursuits.

OK, if this is what you're saying - I understand and this gels much better with your previous comments. I'm sorry for misinterpreting.

Still I am left puzzled as to the course of action you are suggesting for Bikkhu Bodhi.
_/|\_

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Re: Bikkhu Bodhi and Buddhist leaders convene at White House

Post by retrofuturist » Tue May 26, 2015 7:25 am

Greetings Dan,

Close enough... but I was mainly looking at it from the perspective of what environment and support structures might be most aligned to his present goals.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Bikkhu Bodhi and Buddhist leaders convene at White House

Post by tiltbillings » Tue May 26, 2015 7:31 am

Dan74 wrote:OK, but I guess I failed to see how you meant that he could do it "from the basis of a Mahayana Buddhist Sangha" without actually reordaining as a Mahayana bikkshu, i.e. 'converting'.
What is interesting historically in India is that Mahayana monks lived in viharas along side monks following mainstream schools. Both groups would follow to same Vinaya/pāṭimokkha, such as Theravāda, Mahāsāṃghika, Mahīśāsaka, Dharmaguptaka, Sarvāstivāda or Mūlasarvāstivāda monastic rules , and both groups were identified as belonging to this or that pāṭimokkha lineage. In other words, it was not the doctrinal stuff that was important in identifying a monk, it was the pāṭimokkha lineage.

Retro’s umbrage that Ven Bodhi is somehow a crypto Mahayanist is simply misplaced, if we look at Indian Buddhist history as a precedent. There is really no Mahayana pāṭimokkha. Since retro has been unable to show definitively that Ven Bodhi has violated the Theravada pāṭimokkha, there is no real basis for challenging Ven Bodhi's Theravada ordination lineage credentials. And given that one can reasonably show, using the Pali suttas, that the Buddha’s teaching can be used, without doing violence to them, to support Ven Bodhi’s course of action, challenging Ven Bodhi on that basis fails.

Of course, opinions are going to vary, which is fine, but what is not fine is trying impugn Ven Bodhi’s standing by saying that he -- Ven Bodhi -- is no longer a truly true Theravadin or truly true follower of the Buddha’s teachings. Who gets to be the arbiter of what is the truly true basis for monastic standing or textual standing? This has been one really ugly thread.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Bikkhu Bodhi and Buddhist leaders convene at White House

Post by retrofuturist » Tue May 26, 2015 7:35 am

Greetings Aloka,

I was thinking more in reference to the likes of Fo Guan Shan who have an excellent record in simultaneously propagating the Dharma and partaking in humanitarian works. Hence the early reference to the master of that particular tradition.

Interesting to see what Brad Warner took from the event though, so thanks for sharing.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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tiltbillings
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Re: Bikkhu Bodhi and Buddhist leaders convene at White House

Post by tiltbillings » Tue May 26, 2015 7:43 am

Aloka wrote:
Retrofuturist wrote:...the alignment between Bhikkhu Bodhi's current views and those of the Engaged/Humanistic Mahayana traditions
Not necessarily, - here's the opinion of (Mahayana) Brad Warner, a Soto Zen teacher:
I Wish I Could Agree

Published by Brad on May 15, 2015

. . .

https://hardcorezen.info/i-wish-i-could-agree/3553
:anjali:
It is worth a read, as is the linked Stephen Batchelor article in Warner's article. It is all part of an ongoing dialogue with no pat, absolute answers.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Bikkhu Bodhi and Buddhist leaders convene at White House

Post by robertk » Tue May 26, 2015 8:28 am

The duties of the bhikkhus are twofold- gantha dhura and vipassana dhura- that is all.

There was a debate at Mahamakut university (Thai Buddhist university) reported in the press many years ago, where some monks suggested that , as it was not mentioned in the vinaya directly, that bhikkhus could be eligible for the space shuttle and spend time at a space station: good publicity for Buddhism. Others said it it went against the intent of the Vinaya.

I think Retro couldn't care less if the Buddhist "leader' was of little repute, and only the fact that it is someone who has done so much for Dhamma over decades(i.e Bodhi) that he was surprised by his new role.
Is it as bad as some monks who (just one common example) accept money: no it is not.
Is it following the intent of the Vinaya: that I very much doubt.

Do Bodhi's polictical/environmental/humanist beliefs coincide with mine: none that I can find. But that is probably beside the point. :tongue:

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Re: Bikkhu Bodhi and Buddhist leaders convene at White House

Post by mikenz66 » Tue May 26, 2015 9:49 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Aloka wrote:
Retrofuturist wrote:...the alignment between Bhikkhu Bodhi's current views and those of the Engaged/Humanistic Mahayana traditions
Not necessarily, - here's the opinion of (Mahayana) Brad Warner, a Soto Zen teacher:
I Wish I Could Agree

Published by Brad on May 15, 2015

. . .

https://hardcorezen.info/i-wish-i-could-agree/3553


:anjali:
It is worth a read, as is the linked Stephen Batchelor article in Warner's article. It is all part of an ongoing dialogue with no pat, absolute answers.
Yes, those are interesting articles, and the discussion is worth having, without namecalling...

:anjali:
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Re: Bikkhu Bodhi and Buddhist leaders convene at White House

Post by chownah » Tue May 26, 2015 10:22 am

The duties of the bhikkhus are twofold- gantha dhura and vipassana dhura- that is all.
Duties usually describe certain required actions but usually do not describe the totality of all acceptable behavior.
chownah

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Re: Bikkhu Bodhi and Buddhist leaders convene at White House

Post by plwk » Tue May 26, 2015 10:30 am

Yes, those are interesting articles, and the discussion is worth having, without namecalling...
Frankly, I found the comments section far more interesting than the actual article piece... :lol:

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