Americans will never give up their guns.

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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by DNS » Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:11 pm

Justsit wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:30 pm
No one in the US is aiming to take all guns away and give them to the State. That ship sailed a long time ago.
If the government was coming for the guns, they had a prime opportunity during the EIGHT YEARS Obama was in office.
And it DID NOT happen.
Correct, in fact there was a vote on another assault weapons ban and it failed during the Obama administration, partly because 15 Democrat Senators voted against the ban.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/15-democ ... d=50275295

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Kim OHara
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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by Kim OHara » Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:55 am

Justsit wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:30 pm
Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:41 pm
Justsit wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:48 pm
Why not just take the gun out of the kid's hands?
Follow this logic until only one entity has the guns: the State. What makes the State more trustworthy than any individual? Nothing.
No one in the US is aiming to take all guns away and give them to the State. That ship sailed a long time ago.

If the government was coming for the guns, they had a prime opportunity during the EIGHT YEARS Obama was in office.
And it DID NOT happen. Now there's an NRA approved President, and the paranoid are no less paranoid. One comment I've read is that "The government" is really a dog whistle for "Black and brown people." That at least makes sense.


The problem as it stands now is multi-faceted, and will require a multi-faceted approach to mitigate.

Guns are too easily obtained in the US, no rational person questions that. So there are a number of steps that can be taken to make guns less accessible to those who should not have them. For example, some suggest we should equate gun ownership to ownership of other items with potential to harm, such as cars and driving licenses. In order to drive a car (an action that puts others at risk if you are not qualified), you must have a license. You must pass a test to show that you know how to drive a car safely in traffic and you must have liability insurance before you get your license. The same process can and should be implemented to own a deadly weapon. That in no way restricts ownership, you must simply show you will be a responsible owner.

Other suggestions include an assault weapons ban or at least an age limit to purchase, mental health and some medication proscriptions, and a waiting period for purchase. Also, gun sales at gun shows should be regulated. As it is now, it is too easy to bypass even the lax rules gun shops must follow. There are many others I don't have time to enumerate. I think a combination of all these types of checks would go a long way to help control the madness we have now.

More guns is not the answer.
:goodpost:

You say, "The problem as it stands now is multi-faceted, and will require a multi-faceted approach to mitigate," and I agree but there is also an argument that America's gun problem is a symptom of a much larger problem, as well as a problem in itself. See how it fits with this -
Why We’re Underestimating American Collapse
The Strange New Pathologies of the World’s First Rich Failed State

You might say, having read some of my recent essays, “Umair! Don’t worry! Everything will be fine! It’s not that bad!” I would look at you politely, and then say gently, “To tell you the truth, I don’t think we’re taking collapse nearly seriously enough.”

Why? When we take a hard look at US collapse, we see a number of social pathologies on the rise. Not just any kind. Not even troubling, worrying, and dangerous ones. But strange and bizarre ones. Unique ones. Singular and gruesomely weird ones I’ve never really seen before, and outside of a dystopia written by Dickens and Orwell, nor have you, and neither has history. They suggest that whatever “numbers” we use to represent decline — shrinking real incomes, inequality, and so on —we are in fact grossly underestimating what pundits call the “human toll”, but which sensible human beings like you and I should simply think of as the overwhelming despair, rage, and anxiety of living in a collapsing society.

Let me give you just five examples of what I’ll call the social pathologies of collapse — strange, weird, and gruesome new diseases, not just ones we don’t usually see in healthy societies, but ones that we have never really seen before in any modern society.

America has had 11 school shootings in the last 23 days. That’s one every other day, more or less. That statistic is alarming enough — but it is just a number. Perspective asks us for comparison. So let me put that another way. America has had 11 school shootings in the last 23 days, which is more than anywhere else in the world, even Afghanistan or Iraq. In fact, the phenomenon of regular school shootings appears to be a unique feature of American collapse — it just doesn’t happen in any other country — and that is what I mean by “social pathologies of collapse”: a new, bizarre, terrible disease striking society. ...
:reading: https://eand.co/why-were-underestimatin ... 04d9e55235

I don't know what you all can do about all this, but it starts with a realisation that the US, uniquely, is falling because it has rotted from the inside. It is well into William Gibson territory (read https://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/ ... punk-books if you don't know his work) already. Watching it saddens me, and many others outside the US, terribly.

:namaste:
Kim

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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by dharmacorps » Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:10 am

Kim OHara wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:55 am


I don't know what you all can do about all this, but it starts with a realisation that the US, uniquely, is falling because it has rotted from the inside.

:namaste:
Kim
The US may be specifically troubled by its problems with guns and violence, but saying it has rotten from the inside is incredibly unfair to the many great people here.

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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by chownah » Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:11 am

binocular wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:32 pm
I think the problem aren't guns, legal or illegal, many or few, easy or hard to obtain.
In what country are guns most widely legal and the easiest to obtains with a population which has enough discretionary income so that rich and poor people can purchase one?

In what country is the death by gun shot the highest?

chownah

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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by Kim OHara » Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:05 am

dharmacorps wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:10 am
Kim OHara wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:55 am


I don't know what you all can do about all this, but it starts with a realisation that the US, uniquely, is falling because it has rotted from the inside.

:namaste:
Kim
The US may be specifically troubled by its problems with guns and violence, but saying it has rotten from the inside is incredibly unfair to the many great people here.
I know there are many great people in the US - and I speak to some of them here on DW regularly - but not raising the alarm (and just letting it happen) is worse than pointing out the problem. Worse for you, and worse for the rest of the world.
What should you do when you see your brother getting hooked on drugs? Speak up or shut up?
What should you do when your see your mate get behind the wheel of his car when he has been drinking steadily all evening? Speak up or shut up?

:group:
Kim

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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by santa100 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:45 am

I wouldnt' go so far as saying the US "has rotten from the inside", but the current situation is certainly very bizzarre: high school kids showing an amazingly high level of dignity and maturity while the adults in the Senate and House show an absurd level of immaturity and stupidity. Through such terrible tragedies, America's generation Z have proved that they are definitely not spoiled entitled brats. Very soon they'll become adults and some will become good leaders of the next generation. So there's still hope amid this current sad state of affairs in America.

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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by alan » Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:08 am

Most Americans are God Dam Total Sh*theads.
Nice to see a new generation that, I hope, will not grow up to be total God Dam Sh*theads.
How can this new generation be not total Sh*theads?

Well, they can start by telling Gun Freaks to go straight to Hell.
Because God Dam Gun Freaks need to go straight to Hell.

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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by SDC » Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:03 pm

alan wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:08 am
Most Americans are God Dam Total Sh*theads.
Nice to see a new generation that, I hope, will not grow up to be total God Dam Sh*theads.
How can this new generation be not total Sh*theads?

Well, they can start by telling Gun Freaks to go straight to Hell.
Because God Dam Gun Freaks need to go straight to Hell.
Do you consider yourself a sh*thead or are you just posing as one? Because you sound like a sh*thead who forgot that integrity counts for something. I guess I'll add you to the list of casualties.


Don't worry, alan, soon I'll stop caring.

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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by SDC » Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:06 pm

santa100 wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:45 am
I wouldnt' go so far as saying the US "has rotten from the inside", but the current situation is certainly very bizzarre: high school kids showing an amazingly high level of dignity and maturity while the adults in the Senate and House show an absurd level of immaturity and stupidity. Through such terrible tragedies, America's generation Z have proved that they are definitely not spoiled entitled brats. Very soon they'll become adults and some will become good leaders of the next generation. So there's still hope amid this current sad state of affairs in America.
.
No, they are extremely spoiled and entitled, but it seems to be adding up to them having a hell of a lot guts and zeal. Definitely some hope on the horizon.

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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by Kamran » Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:21 pm

The younger generation voted for Bernie.

While the older generation voted for Trump.

Which generation is more irresponsible ?
"Silence gives answers"

Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Rumi

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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by DNS » Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:35 pm

Kamran wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:21 pm
The younger generation voted for Bernie.
While the older generation voted for Trump.
Which generation is more irresponsible ?
Both; I voted for neither one. :tongue:

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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by Justsit » Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:47 pm

Kim OHara wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:55 am
Justsit wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:30 pm
...
:goodpost:

You say, "The problem as it stands now is multi-faceted, and will require a multi-faceted approach to mitigate," and I agree but there is also an argument that America's gun problem is a symptom of a much larger problem, as well as a problem in itself. ...

Kim
Agree that the American "system" is failing, and from this side it's heartbreaking, particularly to those of us who struggled in the 60's and 70's to bring justice and equality for all.

As I see it, the causes of the failure are multifaceted as well. Yes, there was social disruption back then, but ultimately laws were passed that had long term positive effects; I'm thinking of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, in particular. However, a group of what used to be called White Anglo-saxon Protestants - men, primarily - had somehow come to believe they and their values should rule the world. Allowing others a seat at the metaphorical table did not sit well and the seeds of further unrest were planted. Of course most of these problems originated with slavery, and the fact that for many the Civil War is still being fought. These issues are documented, no need to elaborate here.

In addition, the Vietnam war left a huge rift in the country as well; the political pot simmered until the early 80's when Ronald Reagan was elected. He gave his imprimatur for the WASP's to ramp up the economy and soon it seemed everyone was making tons of money. Even the little guys were on the gravy train, life was pretty good. Then came 9/11 with its attendant fallout, and the whole thing came crashing down in 2008 and has not recovered; despite what statistics on paper say, for many Americans daily life is grim. The US middle class has been squeezed and decimated, the gap between rich and poor widens daily, and that big whooshing sound you hear is the money going to the top. Greed rules.

In the political sphere this manifests as the blue/red smokescreen that we have now. Really, it's bread and circuses to divert the masses from scrutinizing the massive economic rape (yes, this term is accurate) of our country. The average citizen feels totally impotent to effect change because Big Money and huge multinationals run everything (did you know corporations have the same legal rights as humans here? really?); politicians are bought and sold thanks to PAC's, they're wealthy and protect their own; and the situation appears hopeless. Anger, frustration, anxiety are rampant, hence the drugs, guns, violence, etc. The big picture is ugly, and I think it will get worse before it gets better. Unless we come up with a way to eliminate greed I don't hold out much hope for a positive outcome.

Perhaps some karma is manifesting, who can say?

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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by chownah » Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:41 am

DNS wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:35 pm
Kamran wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:21 pm
The younger generation voted for Bernie.
While the older generation voted for Trump.
Which generation is more irresponsible ?
Both; I voted for neither one. :tongue:
So are all of those voters in vermont who keep electing him time and time again all irresponsible?....all 71% of the voters in vermont were irresponsible when they re-elected him to the senate?
chownah

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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by DNS » Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:03 am

chownah wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:41 am
So are all of those voters in vermont who keep electing him time and time again all irresponsible?....all 71% of the voters in vermont were irresponsible when they re-elected him to the senate?
chownah
Argumentum ad populum (if that's a rhetorical question that he must be good since he was elected by large margin)

But anyway, I mentioned that tongue-in-cheek (see smiley).

On a more serious note, I don't believe there are any "irresponsible" generations nor "greatest generation"; there are good and bad people in all generations. The same with voters for certain candidates, they can't all be generalized to one category.

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Re: Americans will never give up their guns.

Post by chownah » Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:54 am

DNS wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:03 am
chownah wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:41 am
So are all of those voters in vermont who keep electing him time and time again all irresponsible?....all 71% of the voters in vermont were irresponsible when they re-elected him to the senate?
chownah
Argumentum ad populum (if that's a rhetorical question that he must be good since he was elected by large margin)

But anyway, I mentioned that tongue-in-cheek (see smiley).

On a more serious note, I don't believe there are any "irresponsible" generations nor "greatest generation"; there are good and bad people in all generations. The same with voters for certain candidates, they can't all be generalized to one category.
It was not meant as a rhetorical question.....
I replied to your post because there seems that too often people think of bernie sanders as being some way out there totally impractical person when it comes to politics. In fact he is a very popular person in vermont politics and it seems that overall his popularity has risen the more the vermont voters have seen how he has affected their state. Whether one likes his politics or not it is misinformation to imply that he is a political anomoly whose ideas are too unrealistic for him to be able to effectively administer an executive position.....he has very effectively worked with the democratic congressional caucus throughout his congressional career as an independent......he is not some pie in the sky liberal as many try to describe him.
chownah
p.s. I am not a bernie sanders supporter but I do think that he is one of the few if not the only ethical politician in american national politics.
chownah

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