Activism supporting Rohingya

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retrofuturist
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Re: Activism supporting Rohingya

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:16 am

Greetings chownah,
chownah wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:59 am
This is the unintended consequence of your posting about your beloved "oppression olypmics".
Binocular already responded to your earlier comment about "unintended consequence" here. I'll take her words as my own.

Let me be clear... Words have meaning. If the reader introduces things neither said nor implied by those words, then that's on the reader.

The "unintentional consequence" of your drastic misreading and misrepresentation of what is said, means that it would be a waste of your my time and yours for me to construct a response, since you've pretty much inverted and shown no comprehension of what was said.

Nowhere did I say the "Oppression Olympics" is "beloved".... the practice of vying for prestigious title of "most oppressed" seems ridiculous to me.

If you wish to argue with yourself, by all means please do, but have the decency to leave me out of it.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Activism supporting Rohingya

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:21 am

Greetings DooDoot,
DooDoot wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:42 am
Funny how you jump from the doctrine of Oppression Olympics to the Pali suttas; as though the Buddha would agree with the doctrine of Oppression Olympics.
Are you serious? That's not what I said. Please read what is said. Listen properly this time... emphasis added...
So, if we set aside the collectivist thinking of the Oppression Olympics, we can see that:

- Someone is not automatically "right" or "wrong" based on identity classifications
- Someone is not automatically "in the right" or "in the wrong" based on identity classifications

That conclusion really should be self-evident, but it will rarely be admitted by those who are partisan, especially those who benefit from the application of collectivist (as opposed to individual) logic.

Through the lens of the suttas we can see that "right" and "wrong" is an individual, not collective quality, and that it is determined by the quality of mind, not external adjudication... especially not external adjudication which is collectivist in nature.

This conclusion, rooted in the Buddha's doctrine of kamma, applies to all scenarios, thus it also applies here.
Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Activism supporting Rohingya

Post by L.N. » Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:47 am

chownah wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:28 am
I'm not talking about what what your intended message is.....I'm talking about what the uninformed reader can very easily take from your post.....I'm talking about the unintended consequence.
chownah
I agree with this perspective. The dynamic of potential radicalization of Rohingya Muslims has been reported in mainstream media. E.g., From its start four years ago as a small-scale effort to organize a Rohingya resistance, ARSA — which is known locally as Harakah al-Yaqin, or the Faith Movement — has managed to stage two deadly attacks on Myanmar’s security forces: one last October and the other last month.

But in lashing out against the government, the militants have also made their own people a target. And they have handed Myanmar’s military an attempt at public justification by saying that it is fighting terrorism, even as it has burned down dozens of villages and killed fleeing women and children.


The France 24 video is informative, but the political blog entry is hostile toward Islam with comments such as the following: "... Muslims have NO respect for the Buddhist people and culture, and will destroy any Buddhist temples, monasteries, and holy places ..." Such a blanket statement simply has no basis in fact. Many Muslims have respect for Buddhist people and culture. E.g. Foundations for Muslim-Buddhist Interfaith Dialogue.

The issue here is the avenue for discussion. DW is a forum devoted to Buddhist discussion of the Dhamma. There are other avenues for commentary about why Islam allegedly is bad, why Rakhine Muslims allegedly are terrorists, etc. Here, such discussion comes across the wrong way and can create a misperception of Buddhism. This is a legitimate concern for those who care about being part of a forum where people who are drawn to Dhamma actually feel welcome to hear it. I sense that many Muslims would feel uncomfortable visiting DW or participating here, given some of the manner of discussion.

It's not necessarily wrong to have these discussions. I am not persuaded that DW is the correct venue. However, this is not my decision.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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Re: Activism supporting Rohingya

Post by DooDoot » Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:02 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:21 am
Please read what is said. Listen properly this time...
If I read it wrong then this would appear make what I read about kamma irrelevant to the topic. The topic seems to be, for the most part, about a defenseless group of people called the Rohingya who are being persecuted & ethically cleansed for control of oil & gas land; similar to how the Burmese govt has cleansed other minority groups. Thus, as Buddhists, I think we should take the moral position & have compassion (karuna) for these people, regardless of their religion. The Buddhist position is to try to discern what is evil & what is good and side with the good & just.
137. He who inflicts violence on those who are unarmed, and offends those who are inoffensive, will soon come upon one of these ten states:

138-140 Sharp pain, or disaster, bodily injury, serious illness, or derangement of mind, trouble from the government, or grave charges, loss of relatives, or loss of wealth, or houses destroyed by ravaging fire; upon dissolution of the body that ignorant man is born in hell.

256. Not by passing arbitrary judgments does a man become just; a wise man is he who investigates both right and wrong.

257. He who does not judge others arbitrarily, but passes judgment impartially according to the truth, that sagacious man is a guardian of law and is called just.

318. Those who imagine evil where there is none, and do not see evil where it is — upholding false views, they go to states of woe.

319. Those who discern the wrong as wrong and the right as right — upholding right views, they go to realms of bliss.

Dhammapada

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Re: Activism supporting Rohingya

Post by DooDoot » Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:08 am

L.N. wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:47 am
ARSA — which is known locally as Harakah al-Yaqin, or the Faith Movement — has managed to stage two deadly attacks on Myanmar’s security forces: one last October and the other last month.
ARSA, like ISIS, appear to be a Saudi funded group, lead by Saudis. Take care with this because the Saudis are reported to have an economic interest in the Rakine area, which has oil & gas. An Islamic militia would provide complete justification for full-scale Burmese offensive. Violent world. :|

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Re: Activism supporting Rohingya

Post by L.N. » Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:53 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:08 am
L.N. wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:47 am
ARSA — which is known locally as Harakah al-Yaqin, or the Faith Movement — has managed to stage two deadly attacks on Myanmar’s security forces: one last October and the other last month.
ARSA, like ISIS, appear to be a Saudi funded group, lead by Saudis. Take care with this because the Saudis are reported to have an economic interest in the Rakine area, which has oil & gas. An Islamic militia would provide complete justification for full-scale Burmese offensive. Violent world. :|
Yes, it is a nuanced topic. But there is no doubt that media reports of rapes and murdering children are not just a bunch of "fake news" intended to promote a PC perspective favorable to Muslims. There is a real tragedy underway, and the response of self-identified Buddhists has not always been the greatest, as seen in Sri Lanka, and as seen by some of the dismissiveness and occasional anti-Islamic tone of discussions here on DW. This is not a complaint. It is an unfortunate reality we have to live with.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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Re: Activism supporting Rohingya

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:08 am

Greetings,
DooDoot wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:02 am
If I read it wrong then this would appear make what I read about kamma irrelevant to the topic.
Not really. Kamma is action, and if we're not concerned about the actions performed by certain individuals then why would this topic exist?

Kamma also, is strictly individual...

It recognizes that a person can do good actions.
It recognizes that a person can do bad actions.
It recognizes that a person can do kammically-neutral actions.
It doesn't recognize "sides".
We should take the moral position & have compassion (karuna) for these people, regardless of their religion.

Agreed.
The Buddhist position is to try to discern what is evil & what is good and side with the good & just.
Correct, good and evil (kusala and akusala) are functions of kamma.... and thus good and evil pertains to individuals, not groups. We discern what is evil and good in accordance with the teachings of the Blessed One

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Activism supporting Rohingya

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:19 am

Greetings,

Heads up... disruptive off-topic meta-discussion has been removed.

:focus:

Thanks people.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Mr Man
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Re: Activism supporting Rohingya

Post by Mr Man » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:21 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:36 am
DooDoot wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:25 am
How else would a reasonable person view this image below?
The diagram represents the typical outcomes from a process known as the Oppression Olympics
Hi Paul
How does the diagram represent typical outcomes? Isn't it just fictitious and based on the creators prejudice?

Did you feel it wasn't relevant to this topic because Muslims were at the top?

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Re: Activism supporting Rohingya

Post by chownah » Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:52 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:16 am
Greetings chownah,
chownah wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:59 am
This is the unintended consequence of your posting about your beloved "oppression olypmics".
Let me be clear... Words have meaning. If the reader introduces things neither said nor implied by those words, then that's on the reader.
Let's be really clear....words have more than one meaning...messages composed of words can have subtexts and subtexts may be intended or unintended. Divisive politicos like the "oppression olympic" meme in that their intended subtext (suffering minorities are just whiners) can always just be declared an unintended subtext and then to blame it on the reader......I think that "its on the reader" is an example of "virtue signaling".
retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:16 am
The "unintentional consequence" of your drastic misreading and misrepresentation of what is said, means that it would be a waste of your my time and yours for me to construct a response, since you've pretty much inverted and shown no comprehension of what was said.
I think I understand what you say about identity politics and I agree with alot of it as far as you go with it but really the subject has many dimensions which you never seem to explore. If I thought that the "oppression olympic" meme could help in undoing identity politics I would embrace it wholeheartedly....but I don't see that it does that. I see it as being a sat night live type humorous skit which is being used by the right to maintain identity politics and to trivialize real suffering in the world. I do not think that this is your intent.....but I think this is what too often happens.
retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:16 am
Nowhere did I say the "Oppression Olympics" is "beloved".... the practice of vying for prestigious title of "most oppressed" seems ridiculous to me.
I said it is your beloved....you seem to cling to it and defend it very rigorously. People tell you what their impressions of the "oppression olympics" are and you go into denial/blame.
Vying for a title of most oppresse is ridiculous......it doesn't happen in any relevant way in the world except as a meme in the minds of right wing politicos who falsely attribute its existence to the left wing. I don't think that I have ever seen references to "oppression olympics" except for from you and the things you have pointed at.....other than that it is very very obscure.....so obscure that to reference it in any way that is meant to apply to the world is ridiculous.
retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:16 am
If you wish to argue with yourself, by all means please do, but have the decency to leave me out of it.
More virtue signaling.

Why not just forget supporting the divisive meme and just use a good logical exposition on identity politics......but don't forget to include how identity politics is used to isolate groups and mount societal pressure against them.

chownah

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Re: Activism supporting Rohingya

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:40 pm

Myanmar, Bangladesh sign deal to repatriate Rohingya but details scarce

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/11/23/asia/ ... index.html
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br

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Re: Activism supporting Rohingya

Post by Dharmasherab » Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:33 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:00 am
It does not matter how many genuine or dodgy quotes are made from the Koran, the reality is Islam is not against the West and has never attacked the West probably since the battle for Vienna in 1683.
It is important to make the distinction between Islam and Muslims. Islam is a religion with its own teachings whiles Muslims refer to a group of people that claims to follow them. When this distinction is made then people wont find a reason to call people 'neo-conservative' and other derogatory epithets.

Being critical of Islamic teachings does not necessarily mean that such people support oppression or killing of any group of individuals. and words like 'neo-conservative' are just used to silence any statement made to expose the truth behind Islam.

There are people who are against any discrimination against Muslims (myself included) but at the same time have no problem is criticising the teachings of Islam and well as criticise the character or Muhammad.

You might find the contents of this article helpful before making further posts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

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Dharmasherab
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Re: Activism supporting Rohingya

Post by Dharmasherab » Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:42 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:00 am
In short, since 9/11 (and prior), its OK to murder Muslims because they are Muslims.
In which countries did they change their laws to make it ok to kill muslims simply because they are muslims?

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Re: Activism supporting Rohingya

Post by Dharmasherab » Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:51 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:12 am
Muslims do not hate us. Muslims like immigrating to Western countries for the lifestyle.


This is an inaccurate statement with gross generalisation. There are Muslims who do not hate as well as there are Muslims who do engage in hate. Also the reason why Muslims immigrate to Western countries is not only because of lifestyle. There are other reasons too. So it is incorrect for you to say that it is only because of lifestyle. Too much inaccuracy and generalisation. Highly imprecise statement.
DooDoot wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:12 am
I had my blood taken this morning by a Bangladeshi pathologist wearing a Hijab. Nice lady.


I have Muslim friends and they are nice people. I also have no problem openly engaging in conversation about the teachings of Islam and criticising them in front of them and they are open minded people to accept that. I have no motivation to make them leave. But if they do start talking to me about the teachings of Islam then I openly say what I think just as anywhere else. And they are still friends with me.

Therefore the logical pathwaythat you use to generalise the teachings of an entire religion based on how a pathologist from Bangladesh took blood from you is a logical fallacy.

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Re: Activism supporting Rohingya

Post by Dharmasherab » Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:06 pm

Because everyday Muslims share information about Being killed by Buddhists in Myanmar, I will share my opinion about recent conflict in Myanmar with you here. Simple:

Are Muslims killed in Myanmar / Burma by Buddhists?

NO.
Muslims live all around Mynamar in peace. Problem is only in Rakhine state with Rohingya minority. They lived there for centuries, but in last decade more Rohingya went from Bangladesh to Mynamar, runing away from persecution. They amount doubled from 2000 to 2010. They start to do crimes and problems exploded in 2012. In January 2017 Rohingya jihadists attacked several police stations in Rakhine, Myanmar state. Army start to push away all people who have no Myanmar citizenship.
Myanmar army doesnt mean Buddhist army.
Myanmar army is force of Myanmar army chunta.
Myanmar army is responsible for oppression and killing many people in last 30 years. Buddhists, Christians, Muslims... they dont care at all.

Can Aung San Suu Kyi do something about it?
Not really.
As she already said years ago, she is living for Myanmar citizens. As Myanmar is still totalitarian contry and unity of the country is most important part of constitution. As soon as Aung San Suu Kyi will try to change constitution, she will be in real prison.

Who is behind all this anti Buddhist propaganda?
I personally blame Malaysia as they lost contract for gas with China in Myanmar few years ago and as they support separation movement in South Thailand and Rakhine state too. They are not the only ones. Jihadists in Rakhine state in Myanmar are supported by rich Islamic countries. Same as ISIS / Daes was before. Plans of making Rakhine state new Islamic republic are well known and presented by Rohingya Jihadists on videos.

So it is.
Muslims are NOT killed in Myanmar - Rohingya is the only problem now.
Buddhists are not killing Muslims - Myanmar army is in "war" with Rohingya jihadists and they are "moving" Rohingya away from coutry.
Get your information right and dont share FAKE pictures.

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